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39 Comments
- Zreitan, on 10/25/2009, -2/+27The Geek is strong with PDX...
KEEP PORTLAND WEIRD - omae, on 10/25/2009, -3/+17GO PORTLAND!
- Terostero, on 10/25/2009, -3/+15Portland representing.
- rpieszak, on 10/25/2009, -2/+13PDX FTW!
- elYorte, on 10/25/2009, -2/+10Portland, etc.!
- rpieszak, on 10/25/2009, -0/+7Great to see this little competition taking place. Gets some great press on the topic, plus will result in a blueprint for other cities to follow.
Nice job Portland and San Fran! - AgmLauncher, on 10/25/2009, -1/+6"Portland, Oregon, and San Francisco seem locked in an ongoing battle to become the left coast's left-most city."
What the hell does improved technology have to do with political leanings?
"In our efforts to address climate change, electric vehicles are the game-changer. Some believe that hybrid-electric vehicles are the answer—I believe fully electric battery-powered vehicles are the quantum leap we need to make. Imagine cars with no tailpipes and no direct carbon emissions, powered by an electrical energy system that gets cleaner every year through regulations that requires the switch to renewable energy sources."
Bingo, and you know what will ruin this concept? The push for hydrogen fuel cells, which is an incredibly inefficient way of producing electricity. If you look at some of the talk from big car companies, oil companies, and politicians, there's still talk of a "hydrogen economy". When you think about the steps needed to produce electricity through a hydrogen fuel cell rather than drawing it from a battery, it's scary to think that political pressure might destroy the simplicity of battery powered electric vehicles and give us a horribly inefficient method of delivering electricity.
Electricity: Windmills/solar -> Grid -> Car
Hydrogen: Electricity from windmills/solar -> split water into hydrogen and oxygen -> Compress hydrogen -> Transport to a refueling station -> recombine it with oxygen to produce electricity....
So you're going to waste energy compressing and transporting hydrogen when all you needed to do was tap the electricity directly and store it in a battery? That's a LOT of wasted energy. - MrALPHA, on 10/25/2009, -1/+5My money is riding on Portland. Max lines are a much cheaper/faster way to get around than MUNI or BART. If they can do better with mass transit, then Portland should win with electric cars as well.
- askantik, on 10/25/2009, -0/+4It doesn't INHERENTLY have anything to do with political leanings, but 95% of conservatives read this article and claim it's about treehugging liberals who believe what those commie scientists are saying.
- DaviDTC, on 10/25/2009, -1/+5www.pen.is
- inactive, on 10/25/2009, -1/+5I've never seen a .is domain before...
- AudioPhotograph, on 10/25/2009, -2/+4Stump Town Natives Represent!
- AgmLauncher, on 10/25/2009, -0/+2But remember you also have to transport the compressed hydrogen, which means that hydrogen is being "double spent". It's no different than what we have now: you burn gasoline to deliver gasoline. Granted it's not like it's going to be a 1:1 ratio (you don't have to burn a gallon of gas to deliver a gallon of gas), but it's still not that efficient. What IS efficient is transmitting electrons through copper wiring directly from the source to the end user.
As far as the mass of the battery pack is concerned, I would assume the difference between that and the mass of the fuel cell and hydrogen storage tanks in a FCV is relatively negligible. - Zreitan, on 10/25/2009, -2/+4What does it say when most of the first comments are pro PDX....PDXers don't sleep..
- ChromaVita, on 10/25/2009, -0/+2Finally a race dealing with cars that the left actually stands a chance at winning.
- blahbbs, on 10/25/2009, -0/+2It is not a good strategy to characterize building an electric car infrastructure as "left-most". By doing that, you are making it far too easy for those who consider themselves on the "right" to oppose it, even if it has nothing to do ideology.
People like everything in little compartmentalized boxes so they don't have to think. Electric cars have nothing to do with "left", so don't characterize it as such. - zephc, on 10/25/2009, -0/+2Iceland (Ísland)
- rusty0101, on 10/25/2009, -0/+2You're presuming that the cost of compression is greater than the loss due to battery capacity and mass of the battery pack. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it is not a given.
- yerdaddy, on 10/25/2009, -0/+2What is this "represent"? Is that some kind of gangster noise?
- amish4play, on 10/25/2009, -0/+2#1 is a very poor argument. How much energy does it take to produce the hydrogen, ship it around the country, build completely new infrastructure; much of which is also reliant on electricity which already losses 10% during transport. Also if the energy comes from clean sources then it doesn't matter how big the losses are.
#2 Hydrogen fuel also has an energy density less than a third of gasoline, meaning you need to fill up 3 times more at the pump. So much for being as convenient as gas. Charge rates for batteries are constantly improving, and the technology is here already!
Hydrogen cars are just a pipe dream that they (oil companies) promote, so that people don't ditch them for electric. - noctu, on 10/25/2009, -0/+2san francisco also has the new LED street lights and a smart grid, bart and electric street cars, back in the days when I traveled to seattle I would stop off in oregon and didn't see anything green tech but then to be fair I was only passing thru and didn't spend much time there on any of my travels.
- bdbr, on 10/25/2009, -0/+2..but if the mass transit is really effective, maybe people won't need electric cars? Aren't purely-electric cars only good for local transit due to charging times?
- munkeebuttum, on 10/25/2009, -1/+3portland & sf are brothers really .... my two most favorite places in the usa. Still, go PDX. I miss you. I love you.
- AudioPhotograph, on 10/27/2009, -0/+1Pfff. Portland, Ore.
- DrNemo, on 10/25/2009, -0/+1They should try to compete with electric trabants and ladas.
- ChromaVita, on 10/25/2009, -4/+5I thought Nacar was a race to the left...
- doomestic, on 10/25/2009, -2/+31) Grids do waste ENORMOUS amounts of energy to deliver electricity across it, despite the high voltages. Most countries lose about 10% of the energy transmitted in their Electric grids. You forgot to counter that in.
2) Convenience. You will never win the average every day car user if you don't provide for an easy way to refuel. Even if recharging times back to full are cut down to 1 hour wit the battery electric car, that's still 55 minutes overdue. Hydrogen fuel suffers from no downtime. It basically works just like regular fuel.
Make way for Hydrogen. It's the future. - Shadic, on 10/25/2009, -0/+1..Socially awkward PDX Diggers meetup?
\o/
Seriously though, anybody go to PSU? I'm pretty sure I've seen somebody who fits the stereotype - Obnoxious, POOR VOICE CONTROL, has a Macbook, (With Ron Paul bumper stickers on it!) an iPhone, rants about the free market, and eats oats all day.
...Actually, the last one is kinda weird. But anyways, that guy is annoying. - malex, on 10/25/2009, -0/+1There are actually a number of ways around the charging time issue, most interestingly gas stations (or I think even convenience stores and 7-11s, since there is no special infrastructure needed) can carry rechargeable battery arrays that can be swapped out of your car in less time than it takes to fill a tank.
But you may have a point, and if crappy public transit spurs better alternative energy vehicles, San Francisco is sure to take the lead. - Sarkoon, on 10/25/2009, -0/+1Dude, if you want to look back at the past, take a look at 1900. At the turn of the last century electric cars were outselling gasoline and steam powered cars combined.
- Atario, on 10/25/2009, -0/+1Why should being green be left?
- TexMexRex, on 10/25/2009, -3/+3For the car charging stations in France etc, is the electricity free?
- MarkyBear, on 10/25/2009, -1/+1Guerneville, CA?
- junkneo, on 10/25/2009, -1/+1Electric cars are a myth, will never work for the masses, but only in California.
- NiftyG, on 10/25/2009, -0/+0I guess we're going back to the future, then.
- spooks2k6, on 10/25/2009, -2/+1I thought we already had an electric car! It was called the EV1. The future already happened in 1991. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electr ...
- BangalterEgo, on 10/25/2009, -2/+1You can do it SF!
- gopoindexter, on 10/25/2009, -5/+3Go Seattle!
- namslam, on 10/23/2009, -14/+5San Francisco NO DOUBT
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