What is Digg?190 Comments
- gankige, on 10/19/2009, -0/+57"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."
Just what came to mind while reading the headline. - Snarfy, on 10/19/2009, -5/+60God I hate 'soft' power buttons. It's bad enough when my iPod won't shut off because the firmware is locked. But a car with a 'soft' power button? Seriously Toyota? Off means off. Cut power. Game over. If there is ever a robot take-over it will happen because they all have 'soft' power buttons.
- dsenman, on 10/19/2009, -0/+36With a runaway Prius you just open the door and get out
- brad3378, on 10/19/2009, -1/+36Using the engine computer to cut power to the engine while braking seems like such an obvious solution.
I've never understood the logic behind getting rid of the conventional ignition switch either. What's so wrong about having a key to turn off the engine? - SeenByMany, on 10/19/2009, -0/+27The good news is, in a Prius, you probably got some time to come up with some options before you hit 120mph
- bob645, on 10/19/2009, -0/+27Every car that I have ever driven has the ability to be shifted into neutral taking power from the engine. Sometimes killing the engine is not the best thing to do as you lose significant braking power and reduced steering. Any modern car has a governor to prevent excessive revving into high RPMs from damaging the engine.
Shifting to N in a runaway situation was taught in high school 20 years ago.
If vehicles exists that do not have this ability, I will not drive it. - commenter01, on 10/19/2009, -0/+23Grimshaw v. Ford motor co... Ford tried to apply judge Learned Hand's cost benefit analysis, and got promptly slapped with a 150 million dollar verdict. Cost benefit isn't to be applied to human lives, the judgement said... Tell that to insurance companies.
- joaob, on 10/19/2009, -0/+16FTA: The 911 call from one of the crashes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHGSWs4uJzY
Warning: The final seconds are extremely disturbing - SilasTomorrow, on 10/19/2009, -2/+18What's up with Toyota lately? They seem to be taking their eye off the ball.
- Awesomebox5000, on 10/19/2009, -1/+16Keyless ignitions are pretty badass but I concur with the need for an engine killswitch. 3 seconds is a long time, especially at an undesired 120mph.
- blankman, on 10/19/2009, -2/+15All car companies eventually start making ***** cars to try to make up their profits. It already happened to American cars. They were really good at one time, then they went way down hill and were crap for a while, and now are back to being good again since the companies couldn't survive making crap for that long.
Now Toyota seems to have entered the crap phase with their rusting out pickup frames, bad floor mats, and now this. - BoneStamp, on 10/19/2009, -1/+14Toyota is having a rough year with reports of quality problems.
- rolf, on 10/19/2009, -0/+13All of them.
- clippclop, on 10/19/2009, -0/+13What the ***** was the operator supposed to do? He asked if they had the ability to cut the ignition or something did he not?
What do you want him to ***** superman over there and stop the car? - ryanonfire, on 10/19/2009, -0/+12Transcript please. I've learnt my lesson not to view internet stuff that people say is disturbing.
- PseudoThink, on 10/19/2009, -0/+11Wow, that is disturbing. I live only 20 minutes from there, and drive that same stretch of road to get to my doctor. Not only that, but I've had the experience of crashing a (formula SAE car) with a jammed throttle.
I was a relatively new driver, and didn't think to use the clutch nor the kill switch to slow down. As I came out of a straightaway and the car wasn't slowing down when I braked, all I could think was "brake...Brake...BRAKE!!!" for the 2 or 3 seconds it took before I hit the curb. For those who don't know this already, your car's engine will easily overpower its brakes. With both fully engaged, it doesn't even feel like you're braking.
A year later, when a hub sheared off during skid pad testing, I had the clutch in and car off within a second. But your first unexpected experience with a runaway car, I'm really not sure what can prepare you for that. We even had a mantra everyone heard before driving, in an emergency, two feet in and hit the kill switch. Thinking of shifting to neutral or holding in a car's power button for three seconds? Good luck with that, especially if you're not a quick thinker with a cool head, or intimately familiar with how your car works. - stk198323, on 10/19/2009, -1/+12a single second should be enough. I mean who keeps his finger for a full second on the start switch by mistake while the car is moving?
I could see hitting it by accident while searching for something else but I never could understand those 3 second or 5 second rules, with a normal ignition you don't need to force the key for 3 full seconds before it finally stops the motor and that worked well for a hundred years, the start button should be the same... imediate feedback. At worst, do a ''double click'' to stop it: 2 push in less then 0.5 second and it automaticly consider it as an emergency shut off, would be 6 time faster! - clippclop, on 10/19/2009, -1/+12a 230 horse engine dont take THAT long to get to 120 mph. A matter of seconds if the gas is fully compressed.
- stk198323, on 10/19/2009, -1/+12@rolf
If you think automatic is safer then obviously you don't know how to drive a manual transmission. With an automatic you can't change gears at your will and when you slip on ice or what not being able to choose the good gear to force the motor into slightly spinning to correct your position is usually what makes the difference between a good laugh when recalling the situation over a beer at a bar and an accident that can leave you crippled for life.
Manual are by far the most secure transmission mode available, direct change of gear allow faster acceleration in case you need to get out of the way fast but also it allows for more efficient braking in case of emergency by downshifting and using the compression of the motor.
@clippclop
No, when you get out of semi-automatic mode you are usually into the overdrive mode of the transmission and as stated in the article, this shifter was the kind where all gears are not lined up and you need to push the lever left or right in order to go to other gear mode. Also it was a car that was lended to him while his other car was getting repaired so the person probably had not been familiar with the whole setup. - combatchuck, on 10/19/2009, -5/+16That's scary. Makes me think twice about getting into a Prius again.
- balthisar, on 10/19/2009, -2/+12The article keeps dwelling on what could have or what couldn't have worked at 120 mph. It fails to mention that the initial problem didn't occur at 120 mph, but at a much lower speed. Even a Lexus takes time to get to 120 mph from the speed at which the fault occurred.
- BoneStamp, on 10/19/2009, -0/+9"A major one"
- brad3378, on 10/19/2009, -0/+9There seems to be a misconception here about how power brakes work.
Power steering DOES require the engine to be running, but power brakes do not.
99% of gasoline powered cars use engine vacuum to assist the braking system and the vacuum energy is stored in a vacuum reservoir. A check valve in the system prevents the reservoir from leaking down when the engine is accelerating or shut off. Vacuum assisted braking systems are designed to allow full assisted braking (for a few stops anyway) even if the engine stalls.
/ASE certified master mechanic - BoneStamp, on 10/19/2009, -0/+8and in every car I've ever owned you can even switch to neutral without pressing the gear shift button... just push it forward (console mounted shifters) or push it up (steering wheel mounted shifters). I agree, you want the engine running for power steering and braking/ABS (if working).
- screensnot, on 10/19/2009, -0/+8The driver of this car was a 19 year veteran police officer.
He should have been able to get the car in neutral within a few seconds of the problem.
Worst case scenario is if your first reaction is to cut the ignition. In this car, with its push-button start, I understand that many would not know how to shut the engine off. It may take a couple of seconds to realize that you need to find another alternative. If you go for the brakes next, it may take you an additional few seconds to realize that won't do it either. Then, finally, you get the idea to shift into neutral. If the gear selector is not in drive, it could take a second or two to get to neutral, at most. That's 10 seconds at the very worst. Not long enough to place a call to 911.
I am just amazed that there was more than one person in this car, with the driver being a police veteran, and nobody was able to come up with the 'put the car in neutral' idea, in that length of time (had to be over 1 minute). - inactive, on 10/19/2009, -0/+8do these cars not come with ebrakes, lower gears, neutral, etc...?
- Shawn4168, on 10/19/2009, -5/+13How about you RTFA first?
1. The car was a loaner from the dealership while the driver's car was being serviced, meaning that the driver was somewhat less-familiar with this car.
2. Turning the car off requires holding a button for 3 seconds, something that this guy may or may not have been aware of (see #1)
3. The shifter in this particular car is more complex than in most cars.
4. If your car is stuck at 120mph on a freeway, your biggest concern is dodging all of the other cars on the road and trying not to get killed, you don't have the luxury of time to fiddle around with everything else.
I just hope that you aren't ever caught in that situation. Talk is cheap when you're not the one in the driver's seat. - pjhorrex, on 10/19/2009, -1/+8The biggest problem is that people aren't learning to drive on manual transmissions anymore and haven't been for some time. To drive an automatic you need to know where four things are: the gas, the brake, drive, and park. That's it. And in a stuck accelerator situation not one of those four things will help you.
If you learn to drive on a manual you have a very intimate knowledge of neutral and how a car works behind the abstraction of an automatic transmission.
Hey parents, want to make your kids a safer driver? Buy them an manual transmission car, it's that simple. - Marmot, on 10/19/2009, -0/+6I remember that! IIRC, the problem was that the pedals were offset to the left compared with other cars, so people would mash the gas pedal, thinking they were hitting the brakes.
I remember the hatchet job done by 60 minutes too. - bradleyland, on 10/19/2009, -0/+6But he had the wherewithal to call 911 on his cell phone? I just don't get it. Why would the dispatcher's first reaction not be to try and help him stop the car? When I hear "throttle stuck" a list of options immediately come to mind. I just don't get it... so sad :(
- m0llusk, on 10/19/2009, -0/+6All machines need prominent off buttons.
- lalalalamppost, on 10/19/2009, -0/+5Die in a fire, spammer.
- lalalalamppost, on 10/19/2009, -0/+5In my Camry Solara '99 I was able to shift to neutral when the floor-mat caused the problem. Then I'd kill the engine by turning the key. And then I'd lose power steering and breaking, which made the experience extra fun.
It does get the heart pumping though. - bradleyland, on 10/19/2009, -0/+5Wait, what?
- PiddlyD, on 10/19/2009, -0/+5Foot on the clutch, if you are driving a manual transmission. But then again, these kind of problems do not seem to be a problem for more "primitive" transmissions.
I used to have a hot-rodded Datsun 510 when I was a kid. The accelerator assembly would sometimes stick in summer. Generally speaking, if I hit the gas really hard, to the floor boards, a couple of times in a row, it would unstick. If that didn't work, I would push in the clutch and cut the power as it revved up to 11krpm.
But, a '70 510 is a technical world away from a Lexus ES350 with automatic transmission with "tiptronic" style shifting and bush-button ignition. - lalalalamppost, on 10/19/2009, -0/+5From personal experience I know it is the floormat. I had the exact same problem in my '99 Camry Solara. I figured out what had caused the acceleration problem and then just took out the floormat. Problem solved. Hasn't happened again since. In fact, I'd forgotten about it for the five or more years since the last incident. It was scary as ***** when it would start to happen, but fortunately when it did I knew to put the car in neutral.
It's pretty ridiculous that a floormat, pushed under the accelerator, has the capability of doing this, but given the quality of software engineering, this software engineer can't cast the first stone. - cawpin, on 10/19/2009, -6/+11It's funny that this is just now making news some places. This was a well known problem and Toyota tried to cover it up just like all the other problems they've had. I, for one, am happy to see that the golden child has finally begun receiving what it deserves.
- abright52, on 10/19/2009, -2/+7If you had read the article, the man that was driving the car was a 19 year veteran of the California Highway Patrol. A man with training for "certain pressure situations".
The push button ignition system meant that you needed to hold the button for more than 3 seconds for it to turn off. The gear selector on that particular car had a series of gates for manual shifting that made it much more difficult to shift into neutral. All this combined with the fact that it was a loaner car from the dealership while his Lexus was in the shop. Plain and simple? Not really. - gohepcat, on 10/19/2009, -2/+7Remember a few years ago Audi was almost destroyed in the US by claims that it had an "uncontrolled acceleration" problem? Well...that turned out to not be true. I'd be willing to bet that if you have only a couple dozen reports of this, that the number is low enough to be considered human error.
- screensnot, on 10/19/2009, -0/+5@bombula
The car in question was fairly high horsepower (272hp).
Brakes fade when they get hot.
I think you'd smoke your bakes trying to stop from 120mph with a stuck throttle.
And brakes are not stronger than the engine on the drive wheels of most cars. Ever hear of a brake torque?
Also, ABS doesn't kick in until one or more wheels turns slower than the other wheels (indicating that a tire has locked up). ABS would only hurt you in this situation. - hammr, on 10/19/2009, -0/+5FTA:
Drivers in other crashes also found it difficult to rein in a runaway Toyota. Guadalupe Gomez of Redwood City said he was held hostage for 20 miles on a Bay Area freeway by a 2007Camry traveling more than 100 mph.
Gomez was unable to turn off the engine or shift into neutral and then burned out his brakes before slamming into another car and killing that driver, said attorney Louis Franecke, who represented that victim's family. - EnderSaveUs, on 10/19/2009, -3/+8Step 1: Shift into neutral
Step 2: Apply E-brake
The car did not jump from highway speed to 120 mph right away, there should have been plenty of time to react. I don't understand how a veteran CHP officer couldn't do this. A police cadet told me this 6 years ago, so I'm going to assume a CHP officer would know how to put his car into neutral and brake. - brad3378, on 10/19/2009, -0/+4Check out the bed bounce on this Toyota and tell me how
they still manage to win the hearts of consumers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWjTbiYo3x0 - screensnot, on 10/19/2009, -0/+4I understand what you are saying, Pseudo.
But, did you listen to the 911 call? It was 50 seconds from the start of the call until the crash. There were 4 people in the car. The driver was a 19 year police veteran. The caller didn't sound overcome with panic.
I wouldn't be very surprised if this was an old lady driver. Or, if there was not so much time to think of a solution to the problem.
In this particular case, I am utterly freaking amazed at the result. - brianhatch, on 10/19/2009, -0/+4@badapple18: the problem, as the article mentions, is that at full throttle all of the vacuum assist of the brakes is siphoned off within 2 seconds for this car. After that, it would require 225lbs of force applied to the brake pedal for effective braking, a force that is difficult to achieve in a sitting position. On these kinds of cars, there is just no real braking power when the throttle is wide open.
- blankman, on 10/19/2009, -0/+4That's some crazy movement in the bed. Toyota these days is basically living off of their old reputation it seems. Not that they were that great to begin with (besides engine life), but compared to the early 90's Fords and GM's, the engines lasted a lot longer.
But these days, I'd put a Ford up against a Toyota any day. - senfo, on 10/19/2009, -0/+4I thought the same thing, but the article hypothesis that people freak out and loose common sense. It's a reasonable argument.
- pagemap, on 10/19/2009, -0/+4The key is locked into the ignition, it's not coming out until you turn it and unlock it from the steering column. I think the key is would be the least of your worries if you are crashing your car.
- badapple18, on 10/19/2009, -0/+4but how long does it take while riding the brakes heavily?
- sneaker98, on 10/19/2009, -0/+4He suggested what I would have suggested: turn off the car!
I mean sure, he should've suggested neutral too, but considering he had about 10 seconds to say something when he finally knew what the problem was, I think "turn off the car" was a pretty good call.
Is there a safety feature in these cars that you can't turn the ignition at speeds?
*edit* Missed that in the article - it's a push button, but again, I wouldn't expect the operator to know which cars are push button and which are not. -
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