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124 Comments
- inactive, on 11/20/2008, -5/+70Does that mean we're not going to see any more PT Cruisers? I sure hope so.
- WordsnCollision, on 11/20/2008, -4/+52On the bright side, company CEOs won't have to fly to LA via their private jets.
- techguru2006, on 11/20/2008, -8/+33GM was too busy paying for private planes for their execs instead.
- partrow, on 11/21/2008, -2/+24Buried for inaccurate title.
Both GM and Chrysler are at the show. - doiveo, on 11/20/2008, -5/+26At the end of the day, not that spooky. The auto show was still full of cars.
- lektroluv, on 11/21/2008, -11/+32I find it sad and spooky that GM and Chrysler still make cars.
- wordybutdirty, on 11/20/2008, -5/+21I want one of those Fred Flintstone foot-powered cars.
- inactive, on 11/21/2008, -7/+22Well they should probably start making reliable cars then. :-)
- jggube, on 11/20/2008, -9/+23It's kind of weird to have an auto show in the U.S., filled with cars made overseas.
- inactive, on 11/21/2008, -4/+16why should we bail them out? so they continue to make automobiles that people don't buy? toyota managed to move to the top, want to know the secret? sell a product people are willing to purchase. i don't feel we need to keep companies like this afloat simply because they're american companies. not to mention they've continuously had trouble staying alive, repeated problems. why would anything now change? ***** gm and chrysler.
- Autodidaddict, on 11/21/2008, -2/+14impossible. they are doomed, and it is their own fault.
We need to stop throwing good money at bad money. Right now the US automakers are bad money. Let them crumble.
In a few years, American ingenuity will pick up and we'll have an American-owned car industry again. Some American inventor or entrepreneur will design some sort of new technology that can compete against European and Asian designed cars. But right now, the Big 3 cannot do this. They are screwed over by their own greed, their own labor unions, and their own politicians whom they've purchased.
Good riddance - Rikkochet, on 11/21/2008, -1/+12Lots of them are made in the USA and Mexico. Canada, too.
Just because the companies are headquartered overseas doesn't mean they're anything like buying crappy Chinese novelty toys - there's a lot invested on home soil with vehicles. - andreinvictoria, on 11/21/2008, -2/+11***** um,... I hope they all go under. If you knew the government would bail you out every time you got in trouble. Why would you ever care about running you business properly? Where are the consciousnesses?
- T8erT0T, on 11/21/2008, -2/+11Seriously. Talk about a losing bet. It's like
"Hey Bob, you think you can lend me money. My ***** restaurant ain't doing so well?"
"Gee man, you ever think about maybe making good food that people will eat to get people to come."
"Nah, not really, I just need the money to keep up with payroll. On, and I probably won't pay you back and will be asking again more in a month or so too. So whaddya say?"
"..." - SuperCujo, on 11/21/2008, -2/+10Just goes to show how bad GM is presently running its business. If they are still losing billions per quarter, yet still outselling Toyota (who also manufacture most a log of their cars in the US), I think Chapter 11 might be a good idea for these people.
- t3hmyth, on 11/21/2008, -0/+8Yabba Dabba DO!
- chickenloco, on 11/21/2008, -10/+18If Detroit goes banrupt, at least 2 million people would lose their jobs.
6 Myths About The Detroit Three (READ It before you bury me down - it is all backed up by facts)
The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and
misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to
journalists. Here are six myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.
Myth No. 1
Nobody buys their vehicles.
Reality
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States
last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the
United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally,
GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about
3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United
States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.
Reality
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found
that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power
Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln
brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion,
Volkswagen and Volvo.
Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion
scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33
miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the
highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the
same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient
Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most
efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo
subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Myth No. 4
They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Reality
None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law,
be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of
operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.
Myth No. 5
GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality
The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and
BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and
historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford
and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.
Myth No. 6
They don't build hybrids.
Reality
The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid
models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
By Mark Phelan - Shaman760, on 11/21/2008, -2/+10Those Executives' $20k flights on private jets to beg Washington for money must have drained the budget for carshows.
Methinks the actions of pulling away from the car show are a bit melodramatic. - TheHim, on 11/21/2008, -4/+10Can i have that comment on 15 pages with images?
- dissension, on 11/21/2008, -0/+6thank for a bunch of random facts that have nothing to do with whether a bailout of the big three will help them succeed businesswise or will make them change their business model. in fact, you've demonstrated that they are so incompetent that their successes are not enough to balance their incompetence and actually turn a profit.
- badbadmike, on 11/21/2008, -0/+6All of these "facts" being the case, Detroit should be juuust fine. Surely now they won't be needing a that bailout. Right? No. I'll address three points that are obvious *****:
2. There's no connection between "Initial Quality" and reliability. Anyone can be pleased with their vehicle until they get that first $1500 repair bill.
3. *****. But don't take my word for it: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml
5. Detroit's lineup was more than just "truck-heavy". They RELIED on those profits, and continued to do so despite the imminent crash of that market. The other brands cited build desireable cars in serveral classes, not just trucks and SUVs.
i wish i culd digg u down agin dood - TheZorch, on 11/21/2008, -2/+8Again, 99% of foreign automakers build the cars sold in the US here in the US.
- danwallace, on 11/21/2008, -1/+7"Nissan design boss Shiro Nakamura."
Do you think he can bend space and time? Also, "The Cube" is the ugliest thing I"ve ever seen. - LAhazmat, on 11/21/2008, -2/+8***** the BIG 3! They are all mismanaged!
If they want the 25 Billion:
1) Fire the board of director's
2) Fire the CEO's
3) Sell the fleet of company jets
4) Build REAL Hybrids
5) Use American made parts in your cars. Most today's GM cars are made in China!
Otherwise, give the 25 billion to companies like Tesla! - Wrangler76, on 11/21/2008, -0/+6Yay, let's be selective with facts! I love how every domestic fanboy brings up the Malibu or the CTS in how the big 3 are turning themselves around. Yeah, a few good vehicles amongst a huge ***** pile from 3 massive automakers. AMAZING.
JDPower Rankings
Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mitsubishi and even Kia have ratings for 4/5 in the 2008 automotive environmental index. Ford, Chevrolet and Chrysler are behind with ratings of 3/5.
Toyota and Honda have dependability ratings of 4/5 (+Lexus the only brand that has 5/5), while Chevrolet, Chrysler and Ford are behind at 3/5. Sure Mercury and Cadillac also rank at 4/5, but they're premium brands. It's not fair to compare them to a Toyota or Honda.
Overall quality rankings? Toyota at 4/5 and Honda at 3/5. Ford and Chevrolet at 3/5 too, with Chrysler hanging at 2/5.
Yes, they are at least somewhat comparable nowadays, but the Imports still manage to edge them out in almost all cases. Not to mention that they don't suffer from massive depreciation. It's only going to get worse now that the news is spreading that automakers are losing billions upon billions of dollars per year. No one wants to buy a car from a failing company.
Yeah blame unions all you want, but the domestic industry has been going in the wrong direction for a LONG time in terms of design, reliability, and management. Improving only in recent years is NOT good enough. Taking their customers for fools for so many years has permanantly ruined their reputation and justifiably so. - patpl22391, on 11/21/2008, -5/+11I feel bad for the big three because due to the obligations the UAW have put on them, they have to pay $2,000 from each car. So that means they have to cut $2,000 in extras/perk and STILL compete with the Japanese companies who have the health care paid for by their Government. I think bankruptcy and re-organizing will help them a lot more than a bailout.
- PigGeneral, on 11/21/2008, -0/+6I consider 150k a year (including bennies) for an individual with a highschool diploma excessive. The example of the UAW is the best example of a union that is bad for the workers it represents in the long run.
- Rikkochet, on 11/21/2008, -1/+7You don't think they'd go for the $18,000 Civic? Or the $20,000 Mazda 3?
You don't think those cars are responsible for GM going down? - mrzeero, on 11/21/2008, -4/+9Sooooo.... everyone would own reliable cars that get decent gas mileage. Oh the horror!
- Mujokan, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5This part was spooky...
http://z.about.com/d/animatedtv/1/7/R/m/futHonking ... - cadmiumpaint, on 11/21/2008, -2/+7yes you're right, but it doesn't matter.
Those myths are also called brand perception, which is sometimes more important than facts. Negative brand perceptions take decades to shake.
For my entire life, I've associated American cars with being unreliable pieces of junk, because they've mostly been that. I'll never trust an american car even though i read about cars like the Impala which are allegedly great.
I refuse to gamble with my money on an American car. I"ll just buy a foreign brand thats made here instead. - pgouy, on 11/21/2008, -2/+7You had me going until Myth 4. Reality is that they (GM, Ford and Chrysler) were doing bad LONG before the economic slowdown. In fact, they were already losing when the economy was going up!
I dugg you up, nonetheless. - FreddieD, on 11/21/2008, -0/+5I do not claim to be anywhere close to an expert, but I can share a personal experience that makes me question Myth #2..
My parents, my wife's parents, my wife and I all bought Fords our entire lives. Then my wife and I buy a 2001 Ford Taurus. That thing had to go into the shop seemingly every four months for something, and when one thing went wrong, magically there were other parts that were fused to this faulty part and I end up having to spend $800+. Making sure I'm not being swindled, I went to several different mechanics over the life of that car. *Two* separate third-party mechanics told me that those models were notorious for breaking down and causing maintenance nightmares.
The second we paid our last car payment, we traded that thing in for a Honda CR-V. Have had zero problems with the thing and haven't looked back. I want to buy american, but I don't want to get assraped in the process. - bushisadumbass, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4chickenloco,
I do not believe that for a second. Keep telling that to yourselves. Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers? What a joke! - krnldmp, on 11/21/2008, -3/+7Like hell.
- TheZorch, on 11/21/2008, -1/+5Most foreign automakers build the cars here in plants in the US.
- jcorn1, on 11/20/2008, -5/+9 Ouch.
- FreddieD, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4"Why should GM have to use American parts?"
I'm told that I need to support my fellow americans by buying a domestic car, but they get to buy foreign parts because they are cheaper? - inactive, on 11/21/2008, -1/+5When people can't afford to buy cars to begin with what good is corporate welfare ...err I mean a bailout for the auto industry?
- mimigins, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4*consequences, but I agree
- chickenloco, on 11/21/2008, -1/+5Fact Check: GM has outsold Toyota in the United States last year, and they are over 500,000 vehicles ahead of them this year.
- drey, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4you're not entirely correct on your "myths"
Myth No. 1 - They sell enough vehicles
Yes, people buy "Big Three"'s vehicles, but not enough to cover labor and manufacturing costs.
Myth No. 2 - They build unreliable junk.
It takes a long time to change that. People are not willing to gamble and take "their" word for it. This is something that needs to be proven. Until we see enough of 15-20 year old GM cars on the roads, than not too many people are willing o take a chance.
Myth No. 3 - They build gas-guzzlers.
Compare the ratio of hybrids to the entire line-up at Honda or Toyota versus hybrids at GM. Enough said with your "myth".
Myth No. 4 - They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Money is not answer to their problems.
Myth No. 5 - GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Big three have been making big cars when Japanese came with smaller ones, Big three have been makins SUVs when Honda invested in Civic. GM can't seem to look ahead, they live by what is popular today.
Myth No. 6 - They don't build hybrids.
Tehy don't build enough hybrids to save drivers on fuel costs. One or two hybrid vehicles of poor quality are not going to save the company.
Lastly, if your facts would be in fact true, Big Three wouldn't be begging for money to recover. In reality, Big Three are in trouble and that's not the myth.you're not entirely correct on your "myths"
Myth No. 1 - They sell enough vehicles
Yes, people buy "Big Three"'s vehicles, but not enough to cover labor and manufacturing costs.
Myth No. 2 - They build unreliable junk.
It takes a long time to change that. People are not willing to gamble and take "their" word for it. This is something that needs to be proven. Until we see enough of 15-20 year old GM cars on the roads, than not too many people are willing o take a chance.
Myth No. 3 - They build gas-guzzlers.
Compare the ratio of hybrids to the entire line-up at Honda or Toyota versus hybrids at GM. Enough said with your "myth".
Myth No. 4 - They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Money is not answer to their problems.
Myth No. 5 - GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Big three have been making big cars when Japanese came with smaller ones, Big three have been makins SUVs when Honda invested in Civic. GM can't seem to look ahead, they live by what is popular today.
Myth No. 6 - They don't build hybrids.
Tehy don't build enough hybrids to save drivers on fuel costs. One or two hybrid vehicles of poor quality are not going to save the company.
Lastly, if your facts would be in fact true, Big Three wouldn't be begging for money to recover. In reality, Big Three are in trouble and that's not the myth.you're not entirely correct on your "myths"
Myth No. 1 - They sell enough vehicles
Yes, people buy "Big Three"'s vehicles, but not enough to cover labor and manufacturing costs.
Myth No. 2 - They build unreliable junk.
It takes a long time to change that. People are not willing to gamble and take "their" word for it. This is something that needs to be proven. Until we see enough of 15-20 year old GM cars on the roads, than not too many people are willing o take a chance.
Myth No. 3 - They build gas-guzzlers.
Compare the ratio of hybrids to the entire line-up at Honda or Toyota versus hybrids at GM. Enough said with your "myth".
Myth No. 4 - They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Money is not answer to their problems.
Myth No. 5 - GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Big three have been making big cars when Japanese came with smaller ones, Big three have been makins SUVs when Honda invested in Civic. GM can't seem to look ahead, they live by what is popular today.
Myth No. 6 - They don't build hybrids.
They don't build enough hybrids to save drivers on fuel costs. One or two hybrid vehicles of poor quality are not going to save the company.
Lastly, if your facts would be in fact true, Big Three wouldn't be begging for money to recover. In reality, Big Three are in trouble and that's not the myth. - shodanx, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4well from the governement's perspective, they'd rather have US buyers buying US goods
money that's leaving the country is worse for the governement than giving penny rolls to US car makers for their profits - TheZorch, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4I think the days of multi-billion dollar salaries for big corporate execs are going to become a thing of the past. Yes, they will still be well off but they won't be as outrageously rich as they are now or once were. The economy just can't handle it, and its one of the number one reasons why companies in the US eventually fail.
- threepop, on 11/21/2008, -2/+5I hope they don't get a freaking DIME from the government. I'm sick of the "Big Three" being run by vision-less, greedy, clueless executives. These companies won't go away, the brands are too well known. They'll just be bought up by people who actually know how to run a car company correctly.
- inactive, on 11/21/2008, -7/+10A world with better mileage?
- chickenloco, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3AIG, who got well over 100 Billion, has plenty of executives that have private jets. No one cared about that.
- inactive, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3From an American perspective, we believe in the free market.
$700 billion bailouts are what you get when you stray from it.
Detroit either burns now, or burns later along with $25 billion. - serif69, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3Except when Jobs introduces a new product, the product can compete if not dominate, stock values rise, and people's faith in the company goes up.
- Typhoon2009, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3do you have some sources for this *****? otherwise, Earth was created 6,000 years ago
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