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215 Comments
- gametavern, on 12/04/2008, -17/+81Problem is THE CARS.
- mindpuzzle, on 12/04/2008, -3/+57The problem is poor decision making on all levels of government and business.
- mbraynard, on 12/04/2008, -4/+52This article is retarded.
Alabama didn't GIVE Mercedes anything. Mercedes gave them everything.
Mercedes was deciding where to put it's plant - it could have put it in Mexico. Alabama said "well, you will create a bunch of jobs here directly and even more jobs indirectly, and increase property values, all resulting in MORE government revenue. In exchange for you coming here, we'll give you a break on your taxes." And Mercedes said "yes."
If Mercedes did NOT build it's plant in Alabama, it's not like Alabama would have $253 million more in it's bank accounts. It would, in fact, has less. - AndrewMoyer, on 12/04/2008, -1/+33Has everybody failed to notice that every industry in the USA is experiencing these kinds of problems right now? A bailout is not going to save us.
We're witnessing the baby boomer's greed bubble finally bursting. - siouxmoux, on 12/04/2008, -7/+37Its all about poor Management and Cheaply made Vehicles
- alwshiloh, on 12/04/2008, -8/+37Actually the unions are the problem, to whom the carmakers have sold their souls. So when we start paying out of our wallets for the auto bailout, our money will be going to greedy little union workers who make $50 an hour to stand on an assembly line and get obese pensions when they retire.
- dcshiderly, on 12/04/2008, -4/+32I'd argue that the cars were the problem, but they're not any more. Today, the problem is the perception of the cars, something that was set over the preceding thirty years by incredibly bad product. People have long memories regarding their auto purchases, and they've not forgotten the '82 Citation that left them stranded month after month and that the '87 Civic that ran like a sewing machine and aside from the three mufflers that rusted through, never let them down once.
- garryw, on 12/04/2008, -7/+34It's not the cars, it's the obligations. GM has 68 Billion debt, mostly to employees pensions not banks. Without the UAW contracts they would be profitable and need no loan.
If you have a company bleeding 3 billion/month and 68 billion total debt what exactly does 16 billion buy you? A few months to postpone the inevitable. - ScientistBlah, on 12/04/2008, -11/+38It's the greedy ass UAW. $100 000/year to put on a bumper. I'm usually a pro-union guy, but the UAW is killing the American auto industry. You can only blame the overproduction of large SUVs so much. Other car companies have an advantage because they don't have to pay their workers ridiculous amounts of money. At this point GM is producing more smaller vehicles that are just as good as any competition. Sales are dropping for foreign car manufacturers as well, but you don't see them asking their governments for bailouts. One of the largest contributing factors for the failure of American Auto Manufacturers is the greedy UAW.
- GorfTron, on 12/04/2008, -3/+25Japanese cars last longer. I have seen it happen. Camrys and civics that go 200, 300K miles. This is the norm with no special maintenance. I pretty much know that an american car is on thin ice after 100k.
- blacktriangle, on 12/04/2008, -11/+32The problem is that Japanese companies make better cars.
- TheNik, on 12/04/2008, -0/+21@thePTS: I'm fairly certain I read an article on Digg recently that had an interview with several Honda factory workers and it mentioned Honda being non-union... Found it: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/20/honda.town/
While I'm all for worker security, the unions in the auto industry have proven to be very, very greedy. Unions were designed to protect workers, not over compensate for doing simple, tedious labor.
Let's face it: working on an assembly line generally, no matter what you say, takes no skill or education. It shouldn't be a high paying job. Sitting there doing one task for eight hours is tiring, sure, but that's what you get. You can be proud of your job but once you start asking for benefit after benefit and raise after raise you are giving up dignity for union motive.
Sadly, this is probably going to be dugg down to the very depths of hell. - Atom, on 12/04/2008, -1/+21As a true Red Republican, who drives an F-150, the idea of a bailout is insulting. Live by capitalism and die by capitalism. The market is self correcting and these clowns should get snuffed out just like the market says they should. We cant all be on the Capitalism bandwagon when the getin's good and then decide that the government should get involved because people made stupid decisions. Instead of rewarding those who have made downright criminal decisions with the money they had, the Government should allow the market to take its course and keep its hands out of the private sector.
- dngermouse, on 12/04/2008, -3/+21And our government continues to bail out the bastards who put us in this mess in the first place with (guess what) MORE MONEY, something they couldn't be trusted with in the first place... i say let em all sink and we can get a fresh start that way.
- Namakemono, on 12/04/2008, -2/+20I would love to support the US automakers but I do not want to drive an inferior product. Plus, my Nissan was built in Tennessee while my brother's (who always preaches "buy American!") Chevy was built in Mexico. Who really is supporting the US economy?
- brandita, on 12/04/2008, -4/+21The Problem is two-fold : 1) Irrelevant Products No One Wants to Buy and aren't doing very much about it.
2) They are an old company so they a) have a lot of obligations, (b)are stuck in their ways, and (c) don't get nice incentives that new business do to open up shop. - Scottay, on 12/04/2008, -6/+23The Problem isn't the product? You must be huffing that new car smell. These are bloated, mis-managed, antiquated organizations that are going the way of the Dinosaur. The bailout ship has sailed and it was powered by a hybrid engine.
- Squires, on 12/04/2008, -11/+25Wouldn't it be something if the American car companies just asked the various levels of Government in this nation to stop subsidizing the competition?
- GutterBumber, on 12/04/2008, -9/+23Yes. It is.
- oboshoe, on 12/04/2008, -0/+14Once the government bails out all the corporations. Who's gonna bailout the government?
- JQP123, on 12/04/2008, -0/+13From the article: " Brown calculated that each job cost Alabama $126,500."
This "cost" is misleading. Much of this was taxes differed. This is not the same as money paid out. By a similar methodolgy, what would the "cost" be if the plants were allowed to locate elsewhere? - AWBoy666, on 12/04/2008, -2/+12Don't forget that UAW workers get $140,000+ severance for getting fired. GM can't even reduce their workforce since it's too expensive!
As for his $100k figure, that's over-stating it a little.....the actual is about $64,000 before benefits, which might bring the total up close to $100k.
As for average rates, UAW workers get $73/hour while Honda get $43/hour. IE: 80%+ HIGHER.
The UAW is the single largest problem.
Source: http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&si ... - garryw, on 12/04/2008, -2/+12you
- cadmiumpaint, on 12/04/2008, -1/+11The big 3 did a good job of responding to consumer demand...making gas guzzling SUV's...they were just horrible at anticipating trends - higher gas prices, fuel efficiency and alt energy vehicles.
- Mothrog, on 12/04/2008, -3/+13I love how the article says that the problem isn't product, but if you actually read their 5 reasons the American manufacturers are dying, 2 of the 5 reasons are product-related. Sorry, but the reasons are heavily product related. When gas prices started to increase rapidly a few years ago, what the Big 3 sent to the Detroit Auto Show was a bunch of V8s. Oh, and then there are all the Fords out there that spontaneously combust in people's garages/driveways. And all the American cars that don't have any ***** paint left on them after a few years. And the constant repair costs from their poorly designed vehicles. Yeah, there may be a lot of other factors that affected the Big 3's bottom line, but product sure as hell is one of them.
- tgc1, on 12/04/2008, -4/+13The THING is that Japanese companies make WAY better cars.
// fixed that for you. - govsucks, on 12/04/2008, -2/+10HA! Why don't you ask some of the workers at any of the Toyota plants in the U.S. if they would give up their job at Toyota for a union position at one of the big 3. The only thing you would get is a laugh.
The collectivist unions are killing the U.S. auto manufacturers and they deserve to die for allowing these collectivist pigs to glutton themselves and ruin the companies profitability in the first place. - fizzak, on 12/04/2008, -4/+12The problem was never the cars. Was the assemblers. Let go through my list here:
1983 Cavalier
2 computers engine siezed at 86k mi.
1989 Camaro IROC
3 transmissions
2 computers
5 alternators
1 rear-end axle
all before 100k mi
1991 Lincoln Town Car.
NOTHING! died at 230k mi!
2000 Camaro Z28
Diagnosed with piston slap, a condition where one cylinder was over bored. Sold it after discovering this.
2002 Dodge Dakota Quad Cab
Ball joints bad at 35k
Transmission fail at 45k! Pathetic!!!
2005 Subaru WRX and 2005 Subaru Legacy 50k mi....not one ***** issue!
"Those better informed know that what was true 20 years ago about domestic cars doesn't really apply today." Really? - SuperVepr308, on 12/04/2008, -1/+9I have personally talked to line workers that were making 75-80K (met them on a golf course, no less). They were proud of it. I was kind of shocked by it but there you go. Nice guys anyway.
- Konrad9, on 12/04/2008, -2/+10256,000? Directly, yeah.
Don't forget the indirect jobs. Dealerships/autoshops, entire towns and the businesses in those towns built up around auto factories... huge domino effect. - krnldmp, on 12/04/2008, -1/+9Yeah sure. Chevy Volt should have been on the road ten years ago. The blew it because that's what they do best.
- tgc1, on 12/04/2008, -7/+14Please, allow me to summarize the problem:
Crappy Vehicles
Crappy Management
Crappy Unions
You see it's crap all around. - inactive, on 12/04/2008, -1/+8You know these CEO's are using the same arguments that the banks used to get the $700 Billion dollar bailout. Using fear to scare everyone by saying that if they don't get the bailout then the sky will fall and everyone in the U.S. will lose their jobs.
But they will just use the money just like the banks, doing everything with is except for want it was meant for with absolutely no plan or oversight.
The taxpayers and Congress are being scammed out of hundreds of billions of dollars yet again. - scamper22, on 12/04/2008, -1/+8Who cares if its product or not?
A business is more than just building a good product.
It is marketting it correctly.
It is selling it correctly.
It is being fiscally responsible... (hint... their pension obligations are suicide).
It is being in the right market at the right time.
To be successful, you have to do everything. Arguing that a company deserves to stay afloat just because it is not a total screw up is ridiculous. - richid, on 12/05/2008, -0/+7UAW workers make $29/hr, $60k a year:
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/conten ...
A good example of why unions are now useless:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Auto_Workers#J ... - jphandley, on 12/04/2008, -3/+10I LOVE this comment!!!! I couldn't agree more. My hondas were made in Ohio and Alabama. I would not trade them for any GM or Ford product. NO Way! Corporate America outsourcing... why support that? I also feel the problem is overpaid union workers (I'm sorry line workers making $50/ hr is redonkulous!) and inferior products. Also, I don't feel sorry for the workers a lot of them are second and third generation auto workers. You would think they would use all that money they make to get a college education and improve their future. Nope they tied themselves to a dinosaur. F*** em!
- Ranvier, on 12/04/2008, -1/+8Why would anyone want to buy a new car from a company that might go under in less than a year or never?
- Spor, on 12/04/2008, -5/+12Which lead to poor products.
- chalkboy, on 12/04/2008, -1/+7Well it might be but not for 50k a year
- inactive, on 12/04/2008, -2/+8How many bailouts this will be now for the U.S. car makers? We bailed them out before but they continued to lose market share and they never made themselves more competitive on the global or U.S. market. What will happen is that the car makers will get their bailout because they spent hundreds of millions on lobbyists to get this bailout. Don't ask me where they got the hundreds of millions but I'm figuring it is the same place they got the money to afford to have a fleet of private jets.
They will fail again because they will not change their ways. The failure is because of the poor management and the absolute lack of leadership, the greedy corrupt unions (I mean really, do you deserve $30/hr for just driving screws in with a screw gun all day long?) and the absolutely criminal scum bag car dealers and their repair shop scams.
Those billions in taxpayer dollars will never be seen again because they will end up in bankruptcy anyways because from what I have seen of the CEO today, they have no clue on how to run a company and they will not change their ways. - TsuruchiBrian, on 12/04/2008, -1/+7The car companies actually pay back their loans early??!! What what a good business decision it is to bail out car companies.
I wonder why banks (who normally jump at opportunites to lend money for a profit), wouldn't want a piece of the action. It seems like one of the premises of capitlaism is that you do not have to coerce people into making good business decisions as they will already be motivated to do so by profit.
Obviously something is not adding up here....
Just because an investment turned a profit, does not mean it was a good investment. If I invest $1 million on black on a roulette wheel in vegas, there is a pretty good chance (just under 50%) I will see a huge profit. If I win, I might foolishly claim "see it WAS a good investment". This is false. If it actually was a good investment (e.g. this roulette wheel has 51% odds that I will win), then banks would immediately sell all their stocks, halt all new loans, and invest 100% of their cash in roulette.
The difference between a government bail out and a bank loan, is that banks have share holders that only make a profit if the banks take good risks. The government makes money by extracting it from taxpayers and printing more money thereby devaluing it's own currency and the wealth of it's citizens.
The government is necessary for maintaining order and administering justice. These are its strengths. It should not be making any business decisions aside from providing a stable currency and maybe not even that. - alwshiloh, on 12/04/2008, -5/+11It would almost be worth the resulting economic pain from the failure of the 3 auto makers to see the greedy unions get their just deserts when they are turned out on the streets.
- PotentPotables, on 12/04/2008, -0/+6Larry Webster is a boob.
- aliHG, on 12/04/2008, -2/+8"You can't treat the working man this way! One day, we'll form a union and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve! Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us alive!"
- samby, on 12/04/2008, -0/+6GM lost 2 and a a half BILLION dollars in the last 3 months and 38 billion the year before that!
Look at Net Income:
http://finance.google.com/finance?client=ob&q= ...
It doesn't make sense for him to compare GM to the Chrysler Corporation in the 80s. How can GM repay the loan when they haven't made any money for years?
Even someone on the other side of this issue would have to agree that GM is going to have to make big change if they get this money (and I think they should not). - martinkenney, on 12/04/2008, -1/+725 Billion, now asking for 34 billion. The value of these companies is, Ford 6.35 Billion, GM 2.51 Billion. Why would we bail them out for more than the companies are worth?
- nicktheawesome, on 12/05/2008, -0/+5Then we abandon ship.
- minoss, on 12/04/2008, -1/+6And what about all the new jobs getting created to fill this void? The demand for cars isn't simply going to go away if GM fails. Someone still needs to provide the cars. And I would much rather a profitable company do it over a company bleeding money for years and now trying to get someone to take it for them.
- UNC81, on 12/04/2008, -8/+13It is indeed the cars. Detroit's mantra has been to build it bigger if they can't make it better, and now they're paying for it. For an eye-opening experience, go drive an American-made Taurus and then go buy an American-made Camry, and tell me which one is made better.
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