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56 Comments
- bombula, on 07/08/2009, -3/+25Hydrogen is DOA for several reasons:
1. It leaks. It's just protons, so it leaks through most materials like water through a sponge. That makes storage both at pump stations and in the car a bitch - but maybe storing it as urea would help this.
2. It's hugely corrosive. Tubes and valves have to have expensive coatings in order to hold up for any length of time, as do the pistons and injectors if the hydrogen is powering a combustion engines (one reason why the focus is predominantly on fuel cell vehicles).
3. Hydrogen fuel-cells are simply electric cars with a hydrogen fuel supply, which is stupidly inefficient because it takes lots of energy to make hydrogen fuel in the first place, whether compressed or in some other chemical form (like urea). It makes vastly more sense in terms of efficiency to produce energy at a central location and distribute it through the existing infrastructure - the electrical grid. Moreover, battery technology is more mature than fuel-cell technology, meaning storing energy from the grid in your car inside a battery is much cheaper and more efficient than storing energy in your car inside a hydrogen fuel.
If you're dead-set on using fuel-cells instead of combustion engines, it makes much more sense to use carbon-based fuels like ethanol, biogas or biodiesel than hydrogen. Those fuels can all be produced, transported and stored more easily and efficiently than hydrogen. But then why bother using fuel cells at all? Why not just use those renewable fuels in regular combustion engines?
Hydrogen just doesn't make any sense. Biofuels in combustion engines (preferably hybrid vehicles) are second. But quick-charge all-electric are tops for sure, like they're doing in Denmark and Isreal. - realeskimopimp, on 07/08/2009, -0/+11Hydrogen powered cars - The idea the oil companies have been saying is 10 years away - for the past 40 years.
- smacksaw, on 07/08/2009, -1/+11Well, that could potentially solve the problem of stopping to piss on long trips when you're making good time.
"I have to go peeeeeeee!"
"HOLD IT UNTIL I GET DOWN TO HALF A TANK! THEN USE THE FUELING TUBE!" - WaCkYmAk, on 07/08/2009, -2/+11But if the gas tank leaks, urine trouble.
- dazparkour, on 07/08/2009, -1/+8Ew! Don't drink pee.
- inactive, on 07/08/2009, -2/+8The answer is no.
Hydrogen powered cars are just a ruse that will never get off the ground that politicians use to satisfy consumers demanding alternative green fuel while not pissing off their big oil donors. - appleofdischord, on 07/08/2009, -1/+6I think the advantage of fuel cell over combustion is supposed to be in efficiency. Any energy lost to heat is not used for motion. Hydrogen doesn't seem to be the way to go due to the storage issues, but other fuel cells could be a possibility.
- Zaxcomp, on 07/08/2009, -0/+5Do not forget that we also don't have the raw material to switch the fleet over to hydrogen cars. There literally is not enough platinum left to build all of the anodes required. A few of the other precious metals would be exhausted in the process as well.
Our cancerous conquering of the earth precludes us from solving our own problems, there are now too many of us. - greevar, on 07/08/2009, -0/+4Forgive the pun, but this is a piss poor idea. You would have to collect the urea without other contaminants that you find in sewage. It's short sighted at best and outright ***** at worst.
- frosted, on 07/08/2009, -0/+4Hydrogen is a Bush-Era pipe dream, designed to make it look like the government gives a damn about the environment. The infrastructure alone would give big oil a huge advantage.
It's probably a good idea to use electric because it doesn't explode.
There was talk of metalized hydrogen for a while, turned out it's more dangerous than liquid, prone to violent explosion when warm. - roguewriter, on 07/08/2009, -0/+4What I haven't seen mentioned so far is distribution. There is no network in place to distribute Hydrogen. As one poster above pointed out, it's a pain in the ass to just store Hydrogen. This means there would have to be a phenomenal amount of money put in to create/revamp a delivery-to-point-of-sale infrastructure for Hydrogen.
There already is one in place for electricity. This may be one of the biggest reasons why Electric will win -- and pretty much already has. - pilobilus, on 07/08/2009, -0/+3Hey, who let an engineer loose in here? He's gonna mess up all our "that story sounds good" solutions to pressing world problems by introducing those #&%@! facts and figures.
- CedEx, on 07/08/2009, -0/+3At least with cooking oil, your exhaust smells like french fries... what's driving on piss going to smell like?!
- cuoops, on 07/08/2009, -0/+2You can use it engine coolant, like they did in Red Dawn.
- 2centsbook, on 07/08/2009, -0/+2I don't think anything cna rescue hydrogen cars.... They are just stupid. Why use electricity, to pressurize hydrogen, to re-convert into electricity? And why want to drive with a VERY dangerous tank full of liquid right next to you? Electric cars are better....
- pinchduck, on 07/08/2009, -1/+3Are we to pee on chicken feathers?
- bombula, on 07/08/2009, -0/+2I mostly agree, but I don't think range is that big of an issue.
When was the last time your cell phone ran out of juice? B-b-b-b-but you can only talk on it 2 hours! Well, when it gets low you charge it up, no big deal.
When was the last time you drove more than 200 miles without stopping? Yeah, I can't remember either.
The GM EV-1 had a range of only 60 miles, but there was a 5-figure wait list to lease (you couldn't even buy) that car in LA alone, and that was back in the late-90s when gas cost $1/gallon. Consider also that back in the 1950s when cars only got 7 mpg your range wasn't much more than 150 miles in most vehicles, and there were a lot fewer gas stations too.
I think the auto manufacturers are deliberately making a mountain out of a molehill on the range issue. I've seen no real survey data to support any notion of it being a problem, and the on-the-ground data from actual consumers suggests it's no problem at all. - derekmas10, on 07/08/2009, -0/+2asparagus
- inactive, on 07/08/2009, -0/+2Get a tank of Oxygen, a Tank of Hydrogen and a tank of Argon from a gas supply store.
The Oxygen and Argon tank is made of Aluminum. The Hydrogen tank is glass lined 2 inch thick steel.
The test dates on the Hydrogen tank will be every 2 years and every 5 years for the others.
Hydrogen tanks last 8 years before they are no good unless they are static in which case the glass liner does not damage, but the valve and float will need replacing every 5 years.
BOC gases have a website for this info. Hydrogen gas EATS metals. - magus_melchior, on 07/08/2009, -0/+2The only thing holding electrics back are the energy lobby and their limited range. Production fuel cell vehicles can manage 275-280 miles on a full tank of H2, while the Tesla Roadster gets 200 miles on a single charge. I agree that hydrogen is silly for similar reasons, but biofuel-powered cells might give electrics a run for their money, as the efficiency and range would only increase.
- Dynamoo, on 07/08/2009, -0/+2Oh come on, this is just taking the piss.
- Jektal, on 07/08/2009, -0/+2WTF is with all the spammers recently?
- augustojr, on 07/09/2009, -0/+1One plus about Hydrogen is fast fueling and charging batteries takes some time.
- svensksvamp, on 07/08/2009, -0/+1Urine saved my marriage, so why not?
- magus_melchior, on 07/08/2009, -0/+1Since they're using the hydrogen, the exhaust wouldn't smell like anything.
But if they use the urea directly in the vehicle, you should expect a possible odor of ammonia. Then again, I think Mercedes-Benz diesels are using urea to clean their exhaust-- do they smell like anything? - vbullinger, on 07/08/2009, -1/+2You were buried to ***** before. What makes you think you won't be buried to ***** again?
- eShinn, on 07/08/2009, -0/+1"If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college."
- inigomntoya, on 07/08/2009, -1/+2I grew up in a family of 6 boys, so I am very well acquainted with peeing in a bottle on road trips (we called it the WaWa bottle - I don't know why we called piss wawa, but we did. It makes those 'Gotta have a Wawa' commercials so much funnier).
Anyway, the bottle was great for making good time until a younger sibling would inevitably knock it over...
With that in mind, this 'fueling tube' idea isn't much further off. Hopefully it will have a decent sized opening and a check valve of some sort to keep any smell and excess pee from entering the vehicle... - inigomntoya, on 07/08/2009, -0/+1Murray: and one time, my whole platoon had to drink their own urine.
Bret: oh, were you lost?
Murray: no, we were drunk...it was a party game. - eShinn, on 07/08/2009, -0/+1Wonderful. Just what I always wanted. An automobile that smells like burning piss.
- Zaxcomp, on 07/08/2009, -0/+1I recall a rather major event for a vehicle filled with hydrogen. Oh the humanity.
- Valleye, on 07/08/2009, -0/+1Hog farms!
- Valleye, on 07/11/2009, -0/+1@Zaxcomp, seriously? I do not see any manufacturers wrapping their cars in explosive cloth.
@frosed, my point exactly. Technology is dynamic and we will see improvements in all tech, hydrogen is not excluded. - tonmil, on 07/08/2009, -1/+2"One of the problems with hydrogen is that while it's prolific in nature, hydrogen molecules aren't floating around loose. It takes a lot of energy..."
A bigger problem is the Hindenburg effect. - Leopards, on 07/08/2009, -0/+1Can't figure out if this is a step up, or step down from the car that ran on water!! Of course the inventor was French, so it only ran on Perrier! Never really took off in the market!! 8-)
- dizzydigg, on 07/08/2009, -0/+11.23 volts?! Great Scott!!
- LokitheComplex, on 07/08/2009, -1/+1Isn't this just pissing against the wind?
Taxi please. - magus_melchior, on 07/08/2009, -1/+1You're thinking of LNG or propane-- hydrogen is still gaseous when compressed at room temperature. That and your argument using the energy used to pressurize a gas is a bit silly when there are better ones (leakage, mediocre range at best) out there.
And don't forget that people are still hung up over lithium-based batteries-- remember the exploding Sony battery debacle? You're apparently perfectly fine with a substance that can generate copious amounts of hydrogen when exposed to water in close proximity to your person. You could fall back on nickel-based batteries, but those are much heavier and don't hold a charge as well.
Every energy tech has its drawbacks. Electric doesn't (yet) have the range of hydrogen (though the advantage is something like 25%) and puts an energy burden on the grid, which is still predominantly powered by coal and/or natural gas. Both are miles better than directly burning fossil fuels in ICEs environmentally speaking, but neither has the energy capacity of ICEs. - Valleye, on 07/08/2009, -1/+1And lithium is not? The controls required for lithium recharge are ridiculously redundant. Oh and don't get it wet.
Hydrogen technology can mature just as batteries have. - nimadude, on 07/08/2009, -0/+0And also, they said in article that urea is major component of urine.. according to my biology classes urine is like 95% water, 3 % urea, 2 % salts/ions.
So you'd need ~32kg of urine to produce 1 kg of urea lol
start pissing ppl! - NJank, on 07/08/2009, -1/+1Urea != Urine. Urine contains urea, but a lot of other stuff too. Filtration / reprocessing will still be a hassle.
- gusesquer, on 07/08/2009, -0/+0holy *****
- frosted, on 07/08/2009, -0/+0Actually there is excellent work being done in the field of ultra-capacitors, they will replace batteries, no memory effect and nothing to wear out, they also can be charged in an instant.
Check out the demand on it:
http://www.flashcellscrewdriver.com/
It's the next big thing! - Majora26, on 07/08/2009, -1/+1Batteries are also heavy. The Tesla's battery pack weighs half a ton. I think Biodiesel has the best shot in the short term, but hydrogen and electric could really kick ass given another decade or so
- cruxboarder, on 07/08/2009, -1/+1Finally I can fill up without worrying about driving off with the hose...I hope.
- dhice, on 07/08/2009, -1/+1This bumper sticker takes on a whole new meaning.
http://www.therangerstation.com/products/Decals/As ... - inactive, on 07/08/2009, -1/+1/makes witty pun about pee
- pilobilus, on 07/08/2009, -2/+1True fact: The era of "a car in every driveway" is coming to an end. No amount of wishful thinking is going to change the laws of thermodynamics, or produce high density portable energy from "nowhere". First, cars will get a lot smaller and lighter. Then speed limits will start to fall, to accommodate vehicles with low energy engines merging into traffic. Then the cars will start to thin out fast. That's a best case scenario, not a worst case...
- dazparkour, on 07/08/2009, -2/+1Piss off!
- jimbo92107, on 07/08/2009, -2/+1I don't know about your urine, but my urine is loaded with valuable energy and nutrients.
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