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161 Comments
- mebethekoko, on 11/12/2008, -9/+103This is why they should legalize prostitution. You can't control the conditions of an underground industry.
- BoneheadFarker, on 11/12/2008, -1/+36If it's between consenting adults and doesn't hurt anyone, yes. Your morals should not affect how I live my life. Just because you deem the exchange of money for sex to be objectionable doesn't mean everyone should...
- chrissku, on 11/12/2008, -4/+36Prostitution should be legalized. Who are we to tell other people what they can and can't do with their OWN bodies?
- chiropam, on 11/12/2008, -8/+40This brings awareness to a very disturbing issue - it's time that more people know about this and not ignore it any longer.
- Aadain, on 11/12/2008, -0/+28But if there is always an easy path for people entering the industry to the safe businesses, the ones that are regulated and provide safe, clean, profitable conditions, you bet the underground market would shrink considerably. All that would remain is the underground kid trafficking, which would get more law force attention due to resources diverted from arresting Johns simply for wanting some basic sex.
- Drakoi, on 11/12/2008, -7/+31End the sex slave trade, become a legal prostitute!
- CoreyTamas, on 11/12/2008, -6/+26If you think this is sexy, you don't understand how disgusting and unappealing this is.
If you think this is fetishy, you haven't been able to understand how much sadness touches how many people because of it.
If you think this is funny, you don't understand any of it at all. - leahface, on 11/12/2008, -3/+20The thing that is so awful about this is that it is not just "adult" females. Young girls are kidnapped into sex trafficking. Legalizing prostitution wouldn't help all the eight year old girls from getting kidnapped by evil people.
- SuperMoses, on 11/12/2008, -1/+14How is this a leftist idea. Libertarians would agree with the OP as well. Any anti-authoritarian would agree with the OP. The thing is, if you view prostitution as a problem, then criminalizing it isn't fixing *****. Maybe we should look at the one of the primary root causes: lack of economic opportunity and wealth inequality.
- goldfenix, on 11/12/2008, -0/+12Just watch season 2 of The Wire. If that doesn't piss you off about the illegal sex trade than I don't know what will.
(Yes, this comment was pretty much just pimping The Wire. But come on, it's very nearly the greatest show ever made.) - SuperMoses, on 11/12/2008, -0/+12You're missing the point.
- mrsteveman1, on 11/12/2008, -0/+12If the majority of the market for sex was out in the open you could separate it from the child and kidnapping situations and more effectively combat them.
Treating the entire thing as a blackmarket is making things worse, and allowing things we ALL don't agree with to get lost in the larger blackmarket we created. - thechr0nic, on 11/12/2008, -2/+12bingo you hit it right on the head.
If prostitution was legal, then there would not be this 'slave trade'. Women would have legal recourse to protect their rights and safety measures such as routine checks up for STD's would be common place. Prostitution is often said to be the oldest profession on earth, yet it does not need to be as dangerous and viewed with such contempt as it is. Rights of very single person, needs to be respected.
Prohibition has always been about the 'lack of control' and typically is followed by a black market where crime and violence flourish.
Prostitution 'can' be a willing choice, in an environment where the rights of the prostitute have legal protections and recourse in the event of abuse. People have traded sexual favors for all number of things whether it be cash or gifts throughout the entire history of mankind. There is nothing really wrong with the act of prostitution, what is truly wrong is the crime and violence that happen due to it being an illegal activity.
Prostitutes in legal brothers in Nevada make a decent income, and do so willingly. They dont have to worry about a pimp slapping them, or the police sending them to jail. They get routine checkups and work in clean environments. - mrsteveman1, on 11/12/2008, -0/+9There will always be a black market for something, but in this case it would be very very small, where currently the prostitution blackmarket is absolutely huge. It's a harm reduction thing, you can't ever eliminate harm, but our current efforts aren't doing anything at all.
- thechr0nic, on 11/12/2008, -0/+8If prostitution was legal, it could be regulated and there would certainly be rules against trafficking especially of children.
why would someone want to go to a dirty dingy disease ridden brothel and get serviced by what could be a sex slave, when they could have the option of going to a fully licensed brothel with legal, WILLING, prostitutes that have regular exams and require condoms?
try to think back to when alcohol prohibition ended and drinking and producing alcohol became much safer because:
We could legally regulate who could produce it, how it was produced, require lables to describe what type of alcohol and what potency was in each bottle. We regulated who could sell it, who could buy it, where you could buy it and what age you needed to be to buy it. These are some of the benefits of legalization: regulation.
If you want the 'slave trade' to end, I suggest you start advocating legalization of prostitution, because until then, you will NEVER see it end. People will always supply a black market when there is enough profit, period. - minc727, on 11/12/2008, -0/+8For those of you who don't want to have to go find it
"I am really surprised that anyone in the UK cares about trafficked person for sex. I personally know of a girl that entered the UK thru a London airport on a fake Malaysian passport to engage in prostitution. She was recruited in Udon Thani Thailand by a British man, his Thai wife and her sister. She was taken to Bangkok and trained in the particulars of someone else that already had a passport with a British visa. She then was taken to Malaysia by the Thai woman and provided the altered passport belonging to someone else but changed to show her photo and other information. The passport was provided by someone else from this organization in Malaysia. She was then provided with additional training in all of the relevant information that she would be asked at UK immigration. All of this was provided for a fee of 30,000 GBP and the requirement to work in a London Brothel for 2 years. I sent the UK immigration authorities all of the information concerning this girl. I sent them a copy of the photo page of her REAL Thai passport, I also sent them the day and time of her arrival and the name of some of the places that she was working. WHAT CAME OF ALL OF THIS YOU MAY ASK?.......THEY TOLD HER THAT I HAD INFORMED THEM OF HER ILLEGAL ENTRY INTO THE UK !!!!!....The girl called me and threatened to have me killed because she now had to pay "protection money" to a UK immigration official to keep her from being deported. Can you believe that? UK immigration has the opportunity to investigate a group of people that are altering passports and providing them to anyone for a fee and they could care less. We can't be deporting our sex workers now can we? I guess I really should have just kept my mouth shut and not cared if the UK authorities knew of this international persons trafficking and passport altering organization." - flamesoftheend, on 11/12/2008, -3/+11This is horrible *****.. Please digg this to raise awareness...
- BoneheadFarker, on 11/12/2008, -2/+10Yes, 8 year old girls forced into prostitution is bad. But this doesn't mean we should punish otherwise law-abiding people, while also taking police away from investigating real crimes like pushing 8 year olds into prostitution. Adults should be free to make decisions on how to conduct their lives with other adults, including the decision on who they can ***** and for whatever reason they choose.
- PaulOwen, on 11/12/2008, -0/+6"Women prostitute themselves when they have no other economic means of supporting themselves or their children"
But that's a HUGE generalization. You sure you speak for ALL prostitutes there? Your statement implies so.
Legal minimum wages in the UK (where this article and exhibition is based) are designed to be "living wages". In other words, you are able to subsist on it, and at least have access to shelter and support services for your children. No, it won't buy many things you want, but will buy things you need.
So why has this system failed these prostitutes? Instead of generalizations, let's walk through the logic here:
Why would someone reject that living wage in favour of prostitution?
Because they have no choice.
Why do they have no choice?
Because they have no access to those benefits.
Why ... ?
Because they do not qualify for those benefits.
Que ...?
Because they are in the UK illegallly.
So .. ?
So they are forced into prostitution as a means of earning money illegally.
You seem to take issue with the profession of prostitution, but the real enemy are those governments which refuse to legalise it.
If prostitution is legalised in a developed country with a social security system and livable minimum wage, there is little reason why prostitutes should be regarded as victims any more than anyone who chooses their profession.
Believe it or not, some people (men and women) sell sex for money because they like sex. And money.
I think your sense of outrage springs more from your own views of selling sex for money than the actual (less morally autocratic) reality. - Nboy514, on 11/12/2008, -4/+10Look up the word "slave", then look up the word "want". Follow that up with getting an education.
- inactive, on 11/12/2008, -1/+7Damn. Read "xox123liz321oxox's" comment on the page.
- jehan60188, on 11/12/2008, -2/+7there should be government subsidies for it...
- inactive, on 11/12/2008, -2/+7what's most disturbing is how badly british women fail. it's a supply / demand issue. why are british men importing eastern european women to give them sexual release?
a man needs to cum everyday and it's the woman's job to make that happen.
remember that. - alexanEmpire, on 11/12/2008, -3/+8lawl, ***** prude.
- mrsteveman1, on 11/12/2008, -0/+5"These are some of the benefits of legalization: regulation."
I suspect the reasons people ACTUALLY don't want it legal are similar to the arguments for prohibition, that people shouldn't be ALLOWED to drink alcohol, or pay for sex.
As you noted we saw how well that worked, and we see now how well moral justification works when dealing with social and personal freedom issues. - dreednyc, on 11/13/2008, -0/+4It's amazing to me that you all can't see the message that they are pushing - it's not prostitution they are fighting - it's SLAVERY. There are more slaves on the earth today than there were in the Atlantic Slave Trades. Yes, prostitution can be legalized - but that doesn't stop the demand for little kids (boys and girls) to be stolen from their homes (or sold from poverty stricken homes) and forced into this.
You can't stop the supply side of this industry. As soon as you save one child - they will have another within hours.
You must stop the DEMAND side of this industry. The sick perverts who prey on children who are forced as slaves to do this every day. You want to stop sex slavery - go after the Demand - the men who travel all over the world to pay for this.
Sign up here to get more info on how we will fight this terrible trade.
www.stopchildtraffickingnow.org - thechr0nic, on 11/12/2008, -0/+4@ strOphe
I dont advocate prostitution, however, realistically people have been prostituting themselves since the time of cavemen. My aim, is to reduce the crime and violence associated with it, by legalizing it.
The problem with prostitution is that it is illegal and because there is still a market for people willing to pay for sex, then a black market arises. It is because of this black market that you see a 'slave trade' and women getting raped and abused by pimps or johns. It is this reason why you see such a problem with disease. It are these reasons why prostitution is looked upon so negatively.
You must deal with the crime and violence and black market by legalizing it. We saw this same phenomenon with alcohol when it was illegal. When alcohol was illegal organized crime swept into supply the black market and crime and violence ensued. It was only when we repealed prohibition that we were able to get rid of the black market and start working on the more difficult problem of alcohol abuse.
Prostitution is very similar in that regard. The major problems, are caused by it being illegal. Once you legalize it, then you can regulate it. You can enforce better working conditions like clean environments, age requirements, condom use, health checks, legal recourse for prostitutes who are abused. Prostitutes in legal Nevada brothels do not have pimps, they can come and go as they please, they make good money they work in clean environments. You can bet that if someone were to rape or abuse that prostitute in Nevada, their ass will be in prison.
I do not advocate prostitution, I have never visited one myself and I would certainly hope no-one I know would take it up as a profession. However, these people have rights and need legal protections that they simply will never have while it is still an illicit activity. So long as there is a market (people willing to pay for it), there will be someone willing to supply it (the prostitute or maybe her pimp) So wouldnt it be in everyone's best interests to make it as safe as possible???
My solution has little to do with morality, but it has a lot to do with practicality and common sense. - Tarnum, on 11/12/2008, -1/+5Think of the police officers! They need the protection money they get from the brothels.
- mtnlion2, on 11/12/2008, -0/+4I think the idea is that if prostitution was legalized it would come with laws enforcing safe practices. One of those would likely be an appropriate age and enforcement to ensure nothing like underage prostitution took place. Also, once it was made legal then funding could be appropriated to it's enforcement.
- strOphe, on 11/12/2008, -10/+14These comments are rather naive.
According to the State Department's Trafficking in Persons report from 2008, over 50% of transnationally trafficked persons are under the age of 18. "Legalizing prostitution" is not an answer to this problem.
Unless you want to legalize pedophilia while you're at it, this is going to remain a shadow industry. - CoreyTamas, on 11/12/2008, -1/+5The fact you can say that means you don't understand what the term means.
- RoflCoptah, on 11/12/2008, -0/+4i dont think that legalizing prostitution is aiming to stop child sex slaves, this is an issue concerning consenting adults ONLY, child prostitution would be another issue to be dealt with seperately
- doublebummer, on 11/12/2008, -0/+4Spaniards and Mexicans?
- Canuck, on 11/12/2008, -1/+5Tell me what is the difference between going to a bar spending a ***** load of money on drinks for ladies trying to get a one night stand, or spending the same amount of money on a sure thing?
If it is legalized it would save a lot of money that is currently being spent trying to stop it. It would also make money as it would be a new industry that could be taxed.
Since prostitution will never be stopped no matter how much money is thrown at it lets at least make it safe and take away as many reasons we can for the bastards to enslave children and unwilling women. - mrsteveman1, on 11/12/2008, -0/+4That post was full of strawmen and false logic.
"This idea that if it's between consenting adults, it's okay some how makes this more acceptable is such an absurd answer."
Are we talking about legal adult citizens or people who have been kidnapped?
"Women prostitute themselves when they have no other economic means of supporting themselves or their children. That is why the huge majority of women are trafficked from developing nations. That is why this whole concept that if the women "consents" it's okay is totally asinine."
People should be allowed to do whatever they wish with their own bodies, period. I would however concede that a large amount of sex workers and pornstars don't have much opportunity and get into the business not out of a desire to sell sex but out of necessity, but using the law to make their work illegal doesn't solve the problem, increasing opportunity does.
"What if I said to you, you can watch your children starve OR you can consent to legally having sex with me for $50. Suddenly, it's morally acceptable for the woman to consent in that situation? If you don't think this is how it works, there is so much evidence on this topic it is staggering."
That false choice doesn't apply to everything that falls under the prostitution label. You can prevent people from having to make that sort of choice by ensuring education is widespread and available to those who can't afford it, and ensuring there are good jobs available to those who want them. The rest of the situations (excluding children) that fall under the label of prostitution can't be solved by legislation or job opportunities because it is a choice issue, one that only individuals have the right to make for themselves.
This trafficking issue is a symptom of the black market, which is HUGE right now. You reduce the size of the black market and move some of it into the legal sector and a few things happen, you stop throwing people in jail for no reason, you make enforcement possible for the things that you DO want to stop like kidnapping and forced sex work, and you make it much easier to enforce safety and health regulations and standards because your sex workers aren't afraid of the people trying to protect them.
Keeping prostitution illegal for adults is not in any way protecting children though, and in fact may be allowing them to be mixed into the blackmarket that would otherwise not exist in the size it does right now. Simply throwing more money and laws at the problem isn't going to save children either, they are already being trafficked right now and we already have laws against it and money being thrown at the problem in large amounts. This has to be solved some other way, and separating out the people who wish to be in the sex business from those who don't is a first step. - ToYKillAS, on 11/12/2008, -2/+6bring out the gimp
- BoneheadFarker, on 11/12/2008, -1/+5It's not so much that I want to buy sex...I can go and do that now if I really wanted. It's that if I do, I have to do it with questionable people in potentially dangerous settings while running the risk of being thrown in jail. I'm an adult...I shouldn't have to worry about jail over something that is no one else's business.
- mrsteveman1, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3"And there is already funding appropriated to stop it from happening."
And yet here we are talking about how it is still a problem, sounds like funding doesn't help.
"Legalizing prostitution, in fact, will have zero effect on this industry because the practice is already illegal as it stands. These people will continue to sell and abuse children with or without prostitution regulations for adults."
Why do you insist on bringing up children when people talk about legalizing prostitution if the 2 have nothing to do with each other?
"This a problem of poverty for a large majority of the women participating."
As i and others keep saying, you can't solve poverty by making illegal the things people do to survive in such a situation. You seem to be well aware that poverty is the real problem and yet you keep talking about how it must remain illegal. Something tells me you have other reasons for demonizing the idea of selling sex. - CoreyTamas, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3This is an article about females, mostly underage girls, being taken away from their families and being forced into prostitution against their will, tortured and psychologically and physically destroyed. That's what being a "slave" is.
Explain to me again how I need to educate myself about your fetishes and how they relate to slavery, please? - thechr0nic, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3so if there is a problem with illegal immigration, then we fight that problem too.
people immigrate to the US illegally in search of a better paying job. If we simply enforced existing rules and penalized employers who break the rules then there would be no jobs available for illegal immigrants.
So, if we enforced employment verification on brothels just like we should do with every other job in the US then illegal immigrants will have a tough time holding a job.
Like I said, a lot of this comes down to enforcing regulations. If you legalize prostitution, like you see in Nevada, you will need to provide proof that you are legally able to work in the US. Prohibition is causing far more problems then it is solving PERIOD. PERIOD. PERIOD.
remove prohibition, introduce regulation and we have just solved one major issue (the issue that this thread is the topic of) Then we can focus on your 'world poverty' 'illegal immigration' or whatever other causes you would like to fight. Like I said, one fight at a time.
I would love to hear from you anything positive about perpetuating the black market that prohibition creates. Please give me something, because Im pretty sure you have nothing. There is nothing good about a black market.
If you only take one thing from me, please understand this:
Prohibition causes FAR more harm than good. Ending prohibition would be a positive development in reducing and eventually ending 'sexual slavery' regarding prostitution. The longer you enforce prohibition the worse off we will be.
Im done with you, I am tired of repeating myself ad naseum, only to have you bring up the same thing point that has been so thoroughly debunked. I fundamentally believe we agree on the same concepts, but we completely disagree on how to accomplish those goals. I am out of ways to rephrase in hopes that you will finally understand, I think you are pretty much a lost cause at this point.. I wish you well. I will no longer be responding to you in this thread. - BoneheadFarker, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3@strOphe
And you assume that threatening these women with jail and giving them no legal recourse when they are assaulted somehow helps them. Punishing these women with unjust laws does more harm then the actual act of prostitution. At least prostitution is giving them a chance to feed their children and support themselves. - BoneheadFarker, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3"You legalize prostitution, that means people can immigrate legally for employment in the industry. That means women living in countries of extreme poverty now have the option of selling their bodies in the UK to support their families back home."
Right, instead of the way they do it now where they are basically property of the people that brought them over illegally. They would be able to go to the UK legally and work safely without the threat of jail or the threat of the pimp-hand.
And yes...lets look at the results where it's tested. Nevada is a perfect place to start.
1) The women do it by choice.
2) They follow strict safety rules.
3) They are regularly tested for STDs.
4) They screen their clients.
5) They have proper security watching them so that they don't get assaulted.
6) They don't have to answer to a pimp.
7) They are free to come and go as they please.
8) They are making good money that they don't have to give to a pimp.
Contrast this with illegal prostitution:
1) The women don't always do it by choice.
2) They don't follow strict safety rules.
3) They aren't regularly tested for STDs.
4) They don't screen their clients.
5) They don't have proper security watching them so that they don't get assaulted.
6) They have to answer to a pimp.
7) They aren't free to come and go as they please.
8) They are making good money that they have to give to a pimp.
Which situation is better? Because one this is certain...prostitution will never go away... - Siegfriedson, on 11/12/2008, -1/+4You want to combat sex slavery? Start in Israel:
http://digg.com/politics/Sex_Trade_Flourishes_in_J ... - mrsteveman1, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3str0phe: you don't seem to get it, you don't just legalize prostitution, you ensure that people have opportunities so they don't have to turn to prostitution in the first place. Pretending we can just ban it entirely is naive and ineffective.
The slave trade issue is separate but is being lumped into the larger prostitution market right now because it is all one big black market. Separate out the legitimate market and you can go after the abuses and kidnappings that occur. - thechr0nic, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3I must admit, you are pretty dense. Logic has a tough time penetrating that skull of yours, but we will keep trying to pour the common sense all over you.
How many children do you see working in legal brothels in Nevada... yeah. ZERO. Since each prostitute is registered with the state and must obtain a licence to work, how many illegals do you suppose you will find in a legal Nevada brothel? yeah, ZERO. How many abusive pimps do you think we will find in a legal Nevada brothel? yeah, you must be getting good, ZERO. How many of the prostitutes are regularly tested for STD's in a legal Nevada brothel? yeah, ALL of them. How many prostitutes are free to leave at ANY time in a legal Nevada brothel? yes, ALL of them.
Your example of Thailand seems to come down to an enforcement/regulation issue. I cant speak for the regulations in Thailand, but im sure you will try to find every bizarre exception to the rule. Try finding these same abuses in legal Nevada brothels... I dare you. - BoneheadFarker, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3Hmmm...so the only option they have is illegal, yet rather then trying to make their lives easier you'd rather give them literally no legal options?
And stop bringing this back to how legal prostitution in one country somehow affects a third world country in a bad way. If prostitution were legal here, the benefit of a black market would go away and the police could concentrate on going after the truly bad parts. There would be no need to import illegal workers when there is a selection of legal options available. How many people risk smuggling and buying illegal tobacco when they can just go buy some at the corner store? Sure, a market for illegal tobacco exists, but most people who want tobacco go the legal route. And the illegal tobacco market is no where near as violent nor as lucrative as it would be if tobacco was illegal, simply because it's so available. Plus it's easy to go after the illegal tobacco market because you're not trying to stop everyone from buying tobacco...just the ones doing it outside the legal market.
Poverty may be the reason some women, and men for that matter, go into prostitution. But that doesn't mean we should punish them for that choice... - mrsteveman1, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3That was YOUR point i responded to, that legalizing prostitution doesn't promote or stop the trafficking of children, so how can children even be a part of your argument against its legalization?
As i said these are separate issues, and at BEST legalizing adult prostitution has a chance at reducing the size of the black market. Keeping it illegal has no chance whatsoever of helping these children who get mixed up in the black market. - thechr0nic, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3take the foil off your head.
The sex trade is alive and well, because people are willing to pay for sex. If there is someone willing to pay for it, then there will be someone willing to supply it.. If prostitution is illegal, people are still willing to pay for it and a black market arises.
This black market and peoples willingness to supply it at a profit, it what drives the slave trade.
get rid of the black market by legalizing prostitution and the sex slave trade will disappear too. - mrsteveman1, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3I'll tell you how you fix it. If its legal, you can require the sex workers to be citizens with documentation. That means the majority of the companies (thats what they would be) would abide by those rules and hire only legal workers.
Then you go after things as a licensing issue, you make it illegal to be a sex worker without a license, and you make it illegal to have sex with a sex worker with no license.
That takes care of the majority of the market, and separates it from the illicit side where people are actually being abused. Couple that with a push to make sure people AREN'T living in poverty in the countries we are talking about, the developed ones, and you reduce the need for women to make such a hard choice and you reduce the opportunity for them to be exploited.
If the destination country has a legal but regulated market, it makes no sense for traffickers to take the risk to transport women who won't be able to work in the market anyway once they arrive.
You can't fix the problems of a third world country and its poverty rate by making prostitution illegal in the developed ones.
This is all hypothetical of course but there are examples of this sort of thing working in some countries. What doesn't work is the continued legal approach, that if we only throw more money and enforcement effort at the problem by keeping it illegal we are somehow saving people and protecting children, that is naive. - thechr0nic, on 11/12/2008, -0/+3I know what you mean... strOphe seems like he is allergic to the truth. He keeps repeating the same debunked crap over and over and over.
It would nice if he would realize that if he WANTS to protect children then he should be in favor of legalizing and regulating prostitution. -
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