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Can Feminism & Porn Coexist?

alternet.org — Interesting thoughts on a provocative question. What do YOU think?

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  • aaaleman, on 04/08/2008, -4/+87A few feminists I know disagree with each other. Strongly. Some of them say female pornstars choosing their careers are empowered users of their sexuality. On the flipside, some say those same pornstars are exploited by a society that seems them as nothing but flesh, and they only exacerbate an anti-woman status quo.
    Food for thought...
    • phlux, on 04/08/2008, -14/+18I have some issues with this as well - its a tough one.

      On the one hand, being a father of a young daughter, I can only think that regardless of the choice that any female pornstar may be making to be in porn - that choice is arrived at after having (I assume) some really farked up things happen to them emotionally when children.

      The human psyche in the child is truely fragile - and things that are even jsut seen (like domestic violence between parents) etc - can have some deep seated impact on the adult version of said child.

      I think that while anyone should be free to choose what they want to do - some of the life-paths and choices are not necessarily free as they would not be a fathomable option for some children who did not have the emotional/physical/mental experiences in childhood that would lead them to seek self-love and fulfillment through sex...

      With that said: there are (again, assuming here) some porn stars that may have had a perfectly well balanced and loving upbringing. but i would venture to say that while a pornstar may say they were raised a little angle in an ideal home - if you were to really dig, they may not even realize (or recall) some of the trauma they experienced....
      • roosterjm2k2, on 04/08/2008, -10/+30why does likeing sex have to stem from being abused as a child? Frankly, females from sexually abusive homes tend to avoid sex, and look at sex as a negative thing.

        And by your logic, everyone is forced into the choice they make, as we are all a product of our childhood experiences...
        • phlux, on 04/08/2008, -1/+17ok, so I didnt articulate as well as I should have.

          I was only posing a perspective.. I wasnt saying its the complete succinct truth about the matter.

          All I am saying is that it would be interesting to have a truly objective view on the choices that were made by the individuals who chose porn as a line of work.

          No place in my comment was any value judgment against those who do.
          • MWeather, on 04/08/2008, -2/+8Objectively, they're paid to have sex with attractive, well-hung men. What's the downside? Social scorn? Scorn which doesn't exist for male porn stars.

            If anything giving into that social pressure is anti-feminist.
          • phlux, on 04/08/2008, -1/+3Actually social scorn is the last thing i was thinking about. i was only thinking about the individual and who they are internally.

            If you have compassion for others, that compassion can be held in complete objectivity; e.g. You want what is good for another, without anything or any recognition of that desire in you by the other.

            I dont judge them or their actions - I just hope they are happy well adjusted compassionate people themselves.

            But I ALWAYS like to understand how/why people come to the conclusions and decisions they do. Its an OCD flaw I have.

            And I ahve no issues with porn, I enjoy porn as much as anyone I suppose... I dated a porn star (whom I didnt know was doing porn when I dated her, but found out years later). Ah, I still miss her ;)
        • ucg1, on 04/08/2008, -0/+13People who have sexual experiences very early in life sometimes tend to end up being very sexual. It doesn't necessarily have to be "abuse" where they are forced into an act (it can be an act between two children who are experimenting for example). It opens them up to it at a time where they aren't mature enough to understand it and therefore shapes their perspective on it differently than someone who has sexual experiences later in life.
          • freebirdpat, on 04/08/2008, -0/+5It usually goes to either extreme, either they shut down their sexual drive or their sexual drive goes off the charts like past a 16 year old male's sex drive,(which for those that don't know is "Yes")
      • meruru, on 04/08/2008, -2/+20Totally disagree, not everyone views sex the same way. Yes for you it might be this deeply personal intimate experience, for others it doesn't mean anything. Porn is just another acting job.
      • designerutah, on 04/08/2008, -6/+5It's only a tough one if you view sex as some sort of larger-than-life experience. Like many religions make it out to be. If on the other hand, you see it for what it is:

        1. A way to reproduce
        2. A way for people to grow together

        then it's not really an issue.
        • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -5/+3Virgin itt
        • phlux, on 04/08/2008, -0/+4Agreed, however I dont think we are discussing sex per se in as much as we are looking (or I am chosing to look at) the reasoning and/or justifcation/acceptability of porn as a profession.

          It does seem a little odd that people can have one opinion on porn and a divergent one on prostitution. Is it that in porn, we feel the act is "cleaner" since the women in porn tend to be better looking than the prostitute?

          Sex is wonderful thing, but free (truly free) choice even more so.

          I also highly agree with UCQ1's comment on the early sexualization of kids - as this happened to me. Experimenting WAY too early made me hyper-sexual. But, jsut cuz you're hung like a race horse doesnt mean you have to do porn ;)

          • rootneg2, on 04/09/2008, -0/+2I know plenty of feminists (on both sides of the issue) and I've found that, mostly, anti-porn feminists are also anti-prostitution and vice-versa. The issues really go hand-in-hand; I think that there are a few of the pro-legalized-prostitution viewpoint that are against depicting *abusive* behavior towards women (in porn or otherwise; though particularly in porn), in the reasoning that it promotes *actual* abuse of sex-workers. But in my mind it's hard to see pornography in general as "prostitution lite" so-to-speak; such that legalizing one would imply legalizing the other.

            Personally, I think they should both be entirely legal (although, perhaps, regulated; not for "moral" reasons, but merely in terms of STD testing for the safety and health of the actors/workers/clients)
          • rootneg2, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1"it's hard to see pornography in general as "prostitution lite""

            gah... typo, i meant
            It's hard to *not* see pornography in general as "prostitution lite"
          • Gizza, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1however I dont think we are discussing sex per se in as much as we are looking (or I am chosing to look at) the reasoning and/or justifcation/acceptability of porn as a profession.

            In some cases these girls can get paid 10s of thousands of dollars per week for working a few hours a day. For having sex. What more reasoning do you need.

            "It does seem a little odd that people can have one opinion on porn and a divergent one on prostitution."

            Apart from politicians who have certain reasons I doubt there are really people out there who think porn is good but prostitution is bad and vice versa.
    • IllBeBack, on 04/08/2008, -10/+24These days, it seems like it is men, not women, that are being blatantly portrayed in all forms of media as these needy little idiots that can't think for themselves and are fully reliant on the women in their lives to make any sort of intelligent decision. Women are portrayed as being smarter, more powerful and "better" than men.

      This needs to stop, but who knows how the freight train can be slowed much less turned back towards reality?
      • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -19/+10Any man who is bothered by this is a total ***** pussy.
        • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -4/+3Pussies.
        • travis1982, on 04/08/2008, -1/+3your penis called..it wants nothing more to do with you.
          • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -0/+5Why does my penis have your phone number?
      • lydecker, on 04/08/2008, -6/+8Does it need to stop? I don't think so. It doesn't need to stop any more than porn does.

        Men being shown as weak isn't what needs to change, because as a society we are more mature than to believe men are actually that weak.

        Personally, I think women being shown as a sexual object in porn doesn't make me view women as sexual objects and incapable of being else. Or else I would hate to have a sister.
        • IllBeBack, on 04/08/2008, -6/+3The pussification of men does need to stop.

          But I don't think porn should be stopped. Quite the contrary, I have no problems with porn and believe that the only people that have problems with porn are fugly women that would love to be in porn if they were considered to be sexually desirable.
          • lydecker, on 04/08/2008, -1/+2"The pussification of men does need to stop."

            It's not pussifying men. It's just portraying them as pussies.

            I disagree that portrayal needs to stop. I want more movies like Superbad and The 40 Year Old Virgin.
          • TheSenator624, on 04/09/2008, -0/+4I believe that people who think that only ugly, jealous women have problems with porn have never met, talked to, or touched a woman.
          • cathl, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1"This is a different kind of radio talk show!"
          • fantasyflamz, on 04/09/2008, -0/+2I disagree with you there. I agree more with theSenator624.
      • TheMoniker, on 04/08/2008, -3/+5@ lydecker: "Men being shown as weak isn't what needs to change, because as a society we are more mature than to believe men are actually that weak." You just hit the nail on the head.
        • lydecker, on 04/08/2008, -2/+5This could potentially change, however. If society somehow grows to think men are idiots or incapable, and it's inalienable truth, and that begins to affect personal or political policies or practices, then it becomes a problem. Just like how society had grown to think women were incapable of being strong or standing on their own, so that's why we had to have the revolution of getting rid of backwards philosophies about what women are or aren't capable of.

          I don't think that when society enjoys portraying a lot of males as idiots for entertainment purposes reflects that males are all idiots. It is the intent, always, that matters, though it's hard to translate that into actual policies.
          • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -1/+5"Just like how society had grown to think women were incapable of being strong or standing on their own, so that's why we had to have the revolution of getting rid of backwards philosophies about what women are or aren't capable of."

            No. Your ignorance of history astounds me. Society didn't GROW to think women incapable of being strong, women have ALWAYS been seen as weaker than men. The greeks and romans saw them the same way they saw children, in the middle ages they were seen as more or less property, to be traded in arranged marriages as their family's saw fit.

            This attitude only BEGAN to change very very recently, in the late 19th, early 20th century with the sufferage movement. Even then, women were still seen as inferior until the last few decades.
          • lydecker, on 04/08/2008, -3/+4In the 1700s women had some rights to vote, but lost it. They have perhaps always been weaker, but not always viewed as incapable of being independent or strong. I'm not saying they were ever equal.

            1776 Abigail Adams writes to her husband, John Adams, asking him to "remember the ladies" in the new code of laws. Adams replies the men will fight the "despotism of the petticoat."
            1777 Women lose the right to vote in New York.
            1780 Women lose the right to vote in Massachusetts.
            1784 Women lose the right to vote in New Hampshire.
            1787 US Constitutional Convention places voting qualifications in the hands of the states. Women in all states except New Jersey lose the right to vote.
            1807 Women lose the right to vote in New Jersey, the last state to revoke the right.

            http://dpsinfo.com/women/history/timeline.html
          • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -0/+4Interesting trivia, but bear in mind that the right to vote being taken away was more of a sign that men didn't trust them to make intelligent choices than them given the right ever was. Even after the sufferage amendment, women weren't viewed as strong - from a cultural standpoint - until decades later.
      • fantasyflamz, on 04/08/2008, -2/+19As a female, I have to agree with you IllBeBack. I have constantly thought that women are looked down upon and portrayed as weak and negative, but that they aren't the only gender that it is happening too. I get constantly annoyed with all the "guys can't remember anything" jokes and "guys are so stupid sometimes, but they're just being guys". It's being degrading for men and I don't even believe most people think about it that way. And when I bring it up to other females as a female, they brush me off.

        But how can women complain about being looked upon negatively and jokingly when they do the exact thing to men sometimes. I don't really care which side is worse than the other in this regard (and truthfully, I have no idea), but we both should stop stereotyping and 'jokingly' or not put the other gender in a negative light.
        • fuhlavaflave, on 04/08/2008, -7/+3Yes, let's all hold hands and pray that negative stereotypes disappear.
          Or we can realize that there are both cultural and physiological differences between men and women that shouldn't be ignored.
          /puts on a flannel and goes outside to chop wood
        • TheSenator624, on 04/09/2008, -0/+5Working to end stereotypes and objectification of both genders isn't refusing to acknowledge that there are cultural, psychological, and physical differences that shouldn't be ignored--it's trying to ensure that those differences aren't highlighted in a negative way to prop one gender up higher than the other.
    • mzx639, on 04/08/2008, -8/+2Young women today are becoming more promiscuous, and less inhibited in the way they dress. Some may argue this is a result of the 'Women's Movement', and the empowerment of women to 'express themselves' as equals to men. More food for thought.

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23574940/
      http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/19/fashion/19costum ...
      • lydecker, on 04/08/2008, -1/+3And if they are? Is that not their right?

        I totally think it's a result of the women's movement, because if those that wanted to do it did before, they'd get beaten up by their husbands or fathers. Because that's not how their property should behave. Good for the women's movement.
        • mzx639, on 04/09/2008, -0/+2Just because someone HAS the right do something, does it always make it RIGHT to do so? With freedom there is also a moral and ethical responsibility. More food for thought.
          • fantasyflamz, on 04/10/2008, -0/+1but still it is good to let people be able to make that choice. That's not to say that people should do something b/c they can.
      • travis1982, on 04/08/2008, -1/+1FYI...don't reference msnbc or the nytimes....dumbass.
      • ferrite, on 04/08/2008, -0/+1Granny? Is that you?
      • roxycat, on 04/08/2008, -0/+1it can also be argued that girls are bcoming more promiscuous and less inhibited in their attire because of the cultural influence that females should behave/dress this way to be accepted by the "prized" male. it's not so much that girls are free due to the women's movement. women are still as idealized and objectified as ever. young girls recognize these ideals and try to live up to them for acceptance.
    • directrix13, on 04/08/2008, -11/+1All I have to say is: ***** Feminists.
      • aprestia, on 04/09/2008, -1/+2If you actually had any idea what feminism actually is you wouldn't say that. Or you're a rapist. One of the two.
        • directrix13, on 04/10/2008, -2/+1I know exactly what feminism is: blind promotion of an evolving ideal which means absolutely different things to different people. Yet people still say they support it even though feminism lost most of its original meaning after the women's lib. movement. Contrary to what most feminists believe women should be treated as man's equal *AND* vice-versa. Destroy inequality (where it actually exists), don't create yet another gender differentiator. Abolish the promotion of ANY ONE GENDER. This is isn't war. Equal regard requires involving the other side. Just my opinion though.
          • aprestia, on 04/12/2008, -1/+2The feminists I know, myself included, believe wholeheartedly that men and women should be treated equally - we are as upset by the idea of men being turned down for wait staff jobs because they "won't please the customers" as we are with the disparity in pay between men and women. So I suppose I agree with you, just not your definition of feminism. True, there are people who claim to be feminists and are really just "pro-female," which is fine I suppose if that's what you want to believe, but that's not actually feminism.
          • directrix13, on 04/12/2008, -0/+1@aprestia:
            I was not particularly attempting to define feminism as much as point out its current state of existence. Since you admit that feminism, in actuality, currently has a multitude of claimed definitions, I would suggest promoting a term that actually evokes the idea of pro-equality. You can not honestly say that feminism is not "pro-female" because it is claimed by some to mean pro-equality. BTW, I only think this issue is altogether hilarious given the recent hypocritical defamation of a "masculinist" organization that claimed essentially the same separation but were being attacked by "feminists."
        • aprestia, on 04/12/2008, -1/+1The feminists I know, myself included, believe wholeheartedly that men and women should be treated equally - we are as upset by the idea of men being turned down for wait staff jobs because they "won't please the customers" as we are with the disparity in pay between men and women. So I suppose I agree with you, just not your definition of feminism. True, there are people who claim to be feminists and are really just "pro-female," which is fine I suppose if that's what you want to believe, but that's not actually feminism.
    • rootneg2, on 04/09/2008, -0/+2Porn will exist, whether anyone likes it or not. Feminism aside, porn as a medium should be protected as a basic consequence of 1st amendment rights to free speech. I am *strongly* anti-censorship in any context; and the free distribution of knowledge and open information sharing is the only pathway towards true equality (for any group). Now I'm not saying that we should be piping hardcore gangbang shoots into elementary schools, but there is a difference between obscenity in a public space (open to minors) and the extensive regulation (and outright *illegalization* in some places) that pornography experiences today. If there is a problem with possibly illegal or abusive acts depicted *in* the film, then those can and should be taken care of by existing legislation against the specific activity; censoring the knowledge or portrayal of such an act will do little or nothing to stop it.


      --pro-porn feminist



      p.s. In case anyone is interested, Toronto just held the 3rd annual Feminist Porn Awards:
      http://www.goodforher.com/Feminist_Porn_Awards/FPA ...
      http://www.eyeweekly.com/film/feature/article/2288 ...
      and, no, it's not just softcore "artsy" lesbian porn...
      For the 1st annual (2006) a scene from "Nina Hartley’s Guide to Double Penetration" won a coveted Emma (named after the pro-porn feminist Emma Goldman) in the category of "fiercest female orgasm". and yeah, it's pretty hardcore (and ***** HOT!)
      • rootneg2, on 04/09/2008, -0/+2*sigh* so i did it again...
        I commented before RTFA-ing (R-ingTFA?); I really gotta stop doing that....

        Well, at least the first paragraph still stands as a worthy comment. And the second part gave some relevant Links for the Lazy™
        So, I'm sorry; can we call it even? No unnecessary digg-downs? (just take out your digg-downing aggression on this comment instead if you really need to..)
  • frooo, on 04/08/2008, -15/+42Simple answer? Yes - its called Gay porn...
    • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -1/+101That's your answer for everything.
      • itsgotyou, on 04/08/2008, -1/+15not that there's anything wrong with that. right?
      • KingGorilla, on 04/09/2008, -2/+1Well it saved us from goobacks
    • mlwarrior, on 04/08/2008, -9/+5No, the simply answer is femdom.
    • HaMMeReD, on 04/08/2008, -2/+5I picture feminist porn to be just like current porn, except switch the roles of everyone acting, but not the genders.
    • Sophistifunk, on 04/08/2008, -5/+2Better simple answer: Who ***** cares? Not trashing the story, just the idea that anybody should care what feminists think about porn!
    • rootneg2, on 04/09/2008, -1/+1uhmm

      I don't think they make that for women...
      • kihadat, on 04/09/2008, -0/+0So...what? You have to be a woman to be a feminist?
    • Kali075, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1Thats what I was thinking
  • atbnet, on 04/08/2008, -5/+32Yes they can. Feminist strippers and porn actresses will argue that doing sex work is like any other job except some may use their brain or other body parts to work they are using their pussy to earn a living. If you view porn and stripping as demeaning toward women you wouldn't see their viewpoint, but if you view sexuality as more of an art form you can see their point. While most porn and stripping is done because of the lack of other employment opportunities, some have a genuine appeal for sex work. Sex work also allows women to be independent since it will bring in a lot of money if they are serious about their trade and as you know independence is paramount to feminism.
    • f4nt0m4s, on 04/08/2008, -9/+2I use a woman for her assets.
    • roosterjm2k2, on 04/08/2008, -1/+8the basis of this argument comes from the religious need to demean and demonize sex.

      Take that out of it and let people enjoy sex for what it is, a physical activity, and the argument goes nil.
      • Gerz1219, on 04/08/2008, -1/+1It goes a bit deeper than that. Religion demonizes sex for two main reasons -- 1) it's an uncontrollable urge, and marginalizing a basic universal human need as "sinful" enables the steady manufacture guilt and shame, which ensures repeat business and tithing, 2) it's an appeal to insecurity; it allows most people, who are not sexually desirable and can't fulfill their urges, to channel their evolutionary inferiority into a sense of moral superiority tied to the church, which ensures repeat business and tithing.

        The first problem goes away if we eliminate the church as an institution which fosters deep guilt and self-loathing. But that doesn't change the fact that most men are ugly, ill-endowed, out of shape, and not very wealthy or powerful -- and consequently can't ***** a woman who looks like Jenna Jameson. And, of course, most women don't look like Jenna Jameson, and are more than a little jealous of the attention lavished upon her, upset by the fact that they aren't as desirable. I say that this basic insecurity, which is largely justified, will always guarantee that a certain percentage of the population needs to ascribe divine emotional value to sex amongst ugly people, and this self-deception is undermined by the existence of pornography and other sex work. The human race, as a whole, will never be able to just enjoy sex as a pleasurable physical activity, because most people are not physically pleasurable to look at.
    • punkcat, on 04/08/2008, -11/+2buried, too long
    • fuhlavaflave, on 04/08/2008, -3/+1If MTV True Life has taught me anything, it's that men get paid MUCH less for doing porn than women do (I admit that common sense could have helped me sort that one out myself. Lo, it is common sense I lack). Feminism is not *supposed* to represent meaningless male-bashing by bull-dyke lesbians: feminism merely strives for equality amongst the two sexes. How, then, can feminism be behind an industry that pays women thousands of dollars more than men to do the same work?
      • rootneg2, on 04/09/2008, -0/+2I would guess that it's basic laws of supply and demand.

        As long as there is greater demand for female pornstars than male pornstars (which, i think, is pretty hard to deny), and most males are more than eager to star in porn (again, also probably hard to deny) then that's the way it'll be.

        Although, you are also taking into account the more exploitative "amateur" porn rings. Productions like Bang Bus and the like (granted, not as bad as they play their image up to be, yes it's satire to a certain extent, but I still think that the men in those films end up "on top" to pardon the expression)
  • levitron, on 04/08/2008, -2/+133C'mon- really now. You expect most diggers to read through 4 pages of webtext (sans pics) and then meaningfully participate in a discussion about porn and feminism?
  • FeartheKnighted, on 04/08/2008, -24/+75If no, then just get rid of the feminists please.
    • Jaliyl, on 04/08/2008, -11/+23If yes, do it anyway.
    • minnymoo, on 04/08/2008, -3/+6porn shall overcome.
      • houndeyex, on 04/08/2008, -0/+2It does drive the industry, after all.
        • travis1982, on 04/08/2008, -0/+2at the very least least it drives me to the store to pick up some KY and tissue paper.
    • cdahlkvist, on 04/08/2008, -4/+4Agreed. Rosie O'Donell porn is a scary concept.
      • cdahlkvist, on 04/09/2008, -0/+3I can't imagine why I am being buried. Apparently there are a lot of diggers that would like to see Rosie porn.

        Damn, diggers. You scary.
    • sodade, on 04/08/2008, -1/+10FTA: "the film depicts genuine female pleasure" - If feminism pushes more porn in this direction, I am all for it. Of the 500 GB+ of porn I have downloaded, there are maybe 3-4 scenes where the woman is obviously sincerely into it - I delete the rest as pure garbage. I am bored of those 3-4 scenes and want MORE.
    • Gizza, on 04/09/2008, -2/+1I'm not really sure why there still are feminists. Have they had a look at western society lately. Women are have just about everything better than men now days. Divorce and family law are well in their favour. Rape, sexual and physical abuse charges are just about never going to get a women in trouble even if she hits a man all throws a vase at his head or whatever. They get things like paid maternity leave which is like getting paid for a 6month holiday. It's not like workers comp, they chose to get pregnant.

      What the hell more do they want, us to bow down and kiss their feet every time they walk past?
      • aussia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1Yes, there's lots of us still out there. Women have lots of things much better than they used to, but both men and women face a lot of barriers to true equality.
        I agree with you that women should be just as persecuted as men when it comes to the law. However, something that feminists look at is how physical/sexual abuse and rape are used as ways of gaining power and control over women. I don't think that most feminists would disagree with you that women doing those things to men for the same reasons are correct, or a part of any feminist ideal.
        While many women do choose to get pregnant (although there are many who do not!) the feminist fight is, and continues to be, for parental leave (as in both parents can share their leave) and/or affordable childcare. Most women do not leave their jobs until being pregnant interferes with their ability to do their jobs. Many woman cannot afford to take time off, as (at least here in Canada) Maternity pay is only a percentage of your wage. If that percentage is not enough to live on many return to work much sooner than they would like to. Women who still want careers after having children also may feel pressure to return to work earlier than they would like to because they fear being passed over for a promotion.
        You are very, very correct in recognizing that many men barely have the luxury of the option to stay home and bond with their children after they are born, as the pressures on men to be a "good father" by brining home a wage and working hard are pretty well ingrained in society. *MY* feminism disagrees with this... and I can only hope that someday more feminists recognize this as detrimental to both men AND women!
        • aussia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1"I don't think that most feminists would disagree with you that women doing those things to men for the same reasons are correct, or a part of any feminist ideal."
          on a second read i realize this makes no sense. To sum up: OPPRESSION IS BAD.
      • aprestia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1There are still feminists because of some of the comments that have been posted here. "***** feminists," "who cares," etc. are vocalizations of the problems that still exist in society. You get every one of you digger friends to change their tune and start at least talking like the believe women are equal to men, then I'll stop being a feminist.
  • theAlice, on 04/08/2008, -0/+7I found it very ironic that this article was right above the video of sex calls.
  • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -2/+13What, you've never heard of femdom?
  • jackmaht, on 04/08/2008, -4/+3No. There will always be that ONE person.
  • Austin7687, on 04/08/2008, -3/+70I'm not a woman, so I can't say for sure, but in my opinion, yes. Just because someone, (me) masturbates to porn doesn't mean they (me again) think of women as objects. There are plenty of women that masturbate to porn, and anyone that tells you different is a liar. Is a woman who gets off on a sex scene diminishing women's rights? I don't think so.
    • DivisibleByZero, on 04/08/2008, -1/+29When it comes to masturbation, there are two kinds of people in the world. There are the people who do it, and there are the people who lie about it.
      • Austin7687, on 04/08/2008, -0/+19Exactly. Except for the third kind who like to choke themselves while doing it.
        • travis1982, on 04/08/2008, -1/+8or like to dip their crotch in peanut butter and have their dog go to work
          • Austin7687, on 04/08/2008, -0/+5Technically I don't think that's considered masturbation.

            But.. technically it is considered fun!
    • mali1, on 04/08/2008, -11/+4I stopped reading at "I'm not a woman"
      • Austin7687, on 04/08/2008, -0/+6Why?
        • CobaltBlue, on 04/08/2008, -0/+5I would guess it's because on Digg it's the same as saying I have an internet connection. It goes without saying.
        • Austin7687, on 04/08/2008, -0/+2lol
        • DephexTwin, on 04/09/2008, -0/+3He's *that* straight.
    • knde, on 04/08/2008, -1/+9I agree with you. Porn can very well coexist with feminism. I don’t think there’s much of an issue here…the simple fact of the matter is that there exists porn and then there exists porn.

      You don’t need to be a feminist to decipher which is intentionally degrading and which is just good old get-you-off porn. If you can distinguish between the two and make a conscious effort to only use/watch the non-degrading type of porn, then male or female you should be able to sleep easy.

      I like porn…I watch a lot of porn. I’m very selective with my choices and tend to stick with the more professional female porn stars. Simply because when they reach a certain level of professionalism (not sure if that’s the right phrasing), I am more certain that they are not being exploited and have a lot more control over what kind of porn they make. Plus they are probably raking in a decent amount of money.

      I am a bit wary of the amateur online stuff. And that’s because I think a lot of the females are either being taken advantage of, really stupid or doing this because they have no other options. There’s a world of difference (at least to me) when watching Sandra Romain/Jada Fire, as opposed to some nameless 20-something year old, who may have made a really bad decision.

      Oh well…oh well…that’s just my take on it. I’m sure it gets a lot more complex for “hardcore feminists” which I can’t honestly say I am. I believe I’m more along the lines of a “classic feminist” – which I interpret as wanting nothing more or less than is given to any other gender.

      p.s Old comment regarding porn, http://digg.com/odd_stuff/Porn_Addiction_Huh_Women ...
    • Austin7687, on 04/08/2008, -0/+3Very well said, and I agree with your point. A lot of the problem isn't the people who appear in porn, or the people who consume it, but rather the purveyors of it and those who use it for the sole purpose of exploiting other people. Hell, there are even sites that advertise the exploitation, whether it be real or just perceived by the viewer. But I don't think that it's a strictly female phenomenon. Exploitation in pornography reaches across all genders, ages and races.
    • kissit, on 04/08/2008, -0/+8I think we feminists would not have an issue on this topic if the porn did not constantly promote the objectification of women. How come I can rarely see a mans face or his chest or his biceps in a porn? These things I am most attracted to. It is all about an anonymous penis and the complete body of a woman... who is sometime slapped around, ejaculated on, yada yada. The question is not should or shouldn't porn exist, it is how can porn exist in a way that doesn't not diminish the value of a woman. porn is a playground fantasy, men love to feel wanted, needed and (frequently) like they have control... I know this. But to what extent reigns the addiction to these sentiments? porn does have impacts on the self esteem of many young women, and sadly, frequently leads them to believe that they are only good for one thing....guess what that is. As exciting as porn is to watch (yes iIm a feminist yes I watch pron no don't hate men), realize that the after-effects of it are not only whats left over in your sock.
      • rootneg2, on 04/09/2008, -0/+2digg for more sexy men in porn.

        Why are male porn stars so fat/ugly/old so often; but the women *never* are (unless it's a "fetish" video) ? Granted, not all are, but a lot.


        But that being said; what wrong with the "degrading" part? I mean, not always, but domination is hot...
        • Austin7687, on 04/09/2008, -0/+3Well, but there is a difference between degradation perceived by the viewer, (which is probably the point of the videos your talking about), and actual degradation. And plus in Dom/Sub it goes both ways, doesn't it?
  • daxsymbiont, on 04/08/2008, -12/+5if you're a feminist you don't want women forced to remain virgins.

    and wait for the prince.
  • woohhaa, on 04/08/2008, -1/+10I see feminists on TV and I see porn on the internet. So I would have to say it already does.
  • kahlessreborn, on 04/08/2008, -7/+17Angry Feminist Porn, I'm turned off and on already!
  • NightVortez, on 04/08/2008, -3/+37If my feminism you mean the belief that everyone should be equal to each other no matter the sex, then I could consider myself one, incidentally, I love watching porn.

    Who are these people who believe that sex is somehow demeaning to women?
    • leerayIG88, on 04/08/2008, -6/+3feminism + female action = hot sex.
    • Seldon2639, on 04/08/2008, -2/+9It's not the sex in and of itself. It's the (supposedly) inherent objectification of women as part of pornography. Basically, porn is alleged to show women as nothing more than vehicles for male gratification, reinforcing stereotypes about sexuality, and about how women "should" look. I think it's bullocks, but that's me (a male), so maybe I don't get a vote
      • NightVortez, on 04/08/2008, -1/+3How is that so? There is pornography where the man is "in charge" and there is pornography where the woman is "in charge" I'm sure there is more of the former but that doesn't make porn in general objectifying to women. There is also a lot of respect towards women in the pornography business, and quite a lot of it is ran by women, I mean, look at Tera Patrick.
      • Durrok, on 04/08/2008, -0/+1Fat and old men/women porn goes against that... Damn you internets!
    • kylesykes, on 04/08/2008, -1/+6The act of sex isn't demeaning to a woman.

      Ejaculating on her face[ie: the 'money shot'], pulling her hair while having sex doggy style or forcing her head down onto the bed, having her call you 'daddy', calling her a bitch, etc... THOSE are demeaning to a woman. Some women probably do enjoy that in the bedroom, but considering one or more of those is usually involved in porn and the higher percentage of women who do NOT enjoy those things...I hope you see where this is going.

      Hopefully that cleared it up.
      • aussia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+2[pro-sex/anti-censorship feminist perspective]
        okay, so widely accessible porn that represents a spectrum of sex would be much, much better, but isn't it also important to ensure that for those people who do enjoy x(xx ;) kind of pornography there are representations of their kind of sex too? just because I'm not into that doesn't mean that I should be allowed to limit it for someone else who does.
        [/pro-sex/anti-censorship feminist perspective]
        • kylesykes, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1There are much deeper problems than the ones that I briefly stated, but I'll stick to what I was mentioning previously. The problem is that, no matter what anyone argues, typical porn involves the degradation and objectification of a woman. I'm sure porn exists where the woman isn't treated like she isn't a human and rather a slab of meat to pound against...but let's face it...it just isn't that widespread.

          Why isn't it that widespread? Why is the porn that is so widespread treats women as nothing but a sex object so prevalent? Have we as a society come down to looking at women in porn as the sole purpose of the entire act is to please the man. You rarely see a porn where a guy is pleasuring the girl in...you know...realistic ways. Usually this is saved for lesbian porn, because I guess that's where our society places those sorts of acts.

          It's pretty depressing when you think about it...unless you're like 99% of Digg and just assume if someone doesn't like the way women are treated and portrayed in porn, that you must be some virgin lunatic. I can't expect digg users to put too much thought into these things, which is generally why I get buried nonstop. I'm honestly surprised my previous post hasn't been buried into the ground.
      • aprestia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1Those things don't have to be demeaning to women either. Just like pornstars do, lots of people get off on "acting" in the bedroom - playing the roles of the sub and dom, etc. - if any and all violence, roughhousing, etc. is consensual, it doesn't necessarily objectify the woman, even if she is the submissive party. I let my boyfriend do some of these things to me but not because he makes me, or I feel obligated, and CERTAINLY not because I don't enjoy it!
        I don't necessarily care if I see a dominant male in a porn "abusing" a submissive woman, as long as I can tell that a) they are acting and b) the woman is enjoying it anyway. But there is a slight problem in that this is the vast majority of porn these days, and I agree with the feminists in this article that we should be rewarding those produce films with more varied demonstrations of sexuality. Furthermore, it does worry me that some of those on screen moments might be manifestations of off screen dynamics between directors and female stars.
    • bigfinger, on 04/08/2008, -0/+3"Who are these people who believe that sex is somehow demeaning to women?"
      The ones who don't like the facial Compilations on youporn
  • troycott, on 04/08/2008, -6/+11I thing the feminists and the female porn stars should duke it out. Winner takes all. I'll bring the camera.
    • mali1, on 04/08/2008, -1/+6Can I watch?
    • Highstand, on 04/08/2008, -1/+1I'll bring the booze!
    • wtfdaemon, on 04/08/2008, -1/+2Better yet...
      I think the feminists and the female porn stars should make out. Winner takes all. I'll bring the camera.
      Fixed.
    • MonkCanatella, on 04/09/2008, -1/+1I'll bring the ice water.
  • The_Red_Monkey, on 04/08/2008, -16/+14Who gives a *****, now get back in the kitchen and make me some blueberry pancakes so I can watch more porn.
    • ucg1, on 04/08/2008, -0/+6You masturbate using blueberry pancakes?

      Not a bad idea...
  • f4nt0m4s, on 04/08/2008, -14/+11feminism. lol
    • Blacksheep34, on 04/19/2008, -0/+0Thats it!Im telling Gloria Allred and she will want her pron money back!
  • cabooglio2, on 04/08/2008, -2/+30Can feminism and porn coexist?

    I don't know, but I'd like to watch 'em try.
  • Narrator, on 04/08/2008, -24/+5Yes. Both were setup by the powers that be in order to discourage family formation and decrease the number of children being born. Notice that there is very fast population growth and high degrees of family formation in muslim and other religious and pre-modern communities that reject and/or are ignorant of feminism and porn.
    • RedReplicant, on 04/08/2008, -0/+3Next time you're attempting a "statistics" troll, you might want to actually throw a few in there so it looks like you did your homework.
    • SQLserver, on 04/08/2008, -0/+1So? Seems like a better solution then the One Child Policy America will be forced to use in a few centuries.
      • alpinecow, on 04/08/2008, -0/+1Excluding the impact of emigration, the U.S. population is actually very close to zero growth.
    • travis1982, on 04/08/2008, -0/+2Porn was set up by the powers that be? Porn has been around before powers even existed one in shape or another.
  • elliotys, on 04/08/2008, -4/+28I think the woman body is beautiful. I look at sex/porn as enjoyable for both sexes, so I do not understand why it would clash with feminism.
    • f4nt0m4s, on 04/08/2008, -9/+6Because feminists need to find stuff to complain about. Feminism shouldn't exist in a world where men and women are treated equally. Modern day feminists are hilarious to listen to.
      • kylesykes, on 04/08/2008, -1/+6Men and women are not treated equally. I don't know why you think they are.
        • freebirdpat, on 04/08/2008, -4/+1You cannot be treated equally unless you are equal. Women are treated just as equally as men, and any difference you can find between them, I bet can be traced to a difference that exists between men and women. Such as salaries, men are usually more willing to demand and take a risk to ask for more money than women are.
          • kylesykes, on 04/09/2008, -0/+4So women are 'naturally' less likely to ask for a raise? That's a complete load of crap. You completely ignore society's impact on how women act. I'm sure statistically, sure...men do ask for raises more. Why don't women then? Maybe because society has impacted them in that way?

            Women and men are not equal. Treating women equal is great and everyone should do it but to flat out say that inequality doesn't exist is just a lie.
  • davidg11, on 04/08/2008, -8/+11If they can't coexist, Porn wins, and is that really all that bad?
    I submit to you that it's not!
  • junkwheel, on 04/08/2008, -2/+36I know that human being and fish can coexist peacefully.
    • Jforsyth89, on 04/08/2008, -1/+9We will have to if we want to continue to put food on our families.
    • Austin7687, on 04/08/2008, -3/+1But what about human being and dolphin?

      Two enter, but only one leaves...
      • laserblazer, on 04/08/2008, -0/+4Dolphins are too busy out-cooling the human race.
  • artur.ventura, on 04/08/2008, -6/+5Of course it can! I always liked woman with pubic hair :p
  • Jovensdesciple, on 04/08/2008, -14/+27No, feminism must be destoryed so that porn can survive.
    • travis1982, on 04/08/2008, -1/+2Porn will survive nuclear holocaust
  • DivisibleByZero, on 04/08/2008, -17/+11I hate it when feminists get upset about porn degrading women. Yeah, that's the point. "The lap dance is so much better when the stripper's crying," as they say. But who cares? It doesn't degrade ALL women. Just the ones who are in porn. My outlook on any other woman I see on the street hasn't been affected by my love of degrading porn.

    And there's plenty of porn that degrades men too, if you're into that sort of thing.
  • skeen07, on 04/08/2008, -12/+9The answer is that it doesn't matter. Feminists are on par with christians in the hypocrisy department.
    • TheMoniker, on 04/08/2008, -2/+7Hmm. I can see that there might be some feminists who are hypocrites, but to be feminist means, loosely, "to believe that men and women are equal." This is been the view held by the majority of feminists and I fail to see the hypocrisy in it. So, what do you mean, exactly? Albeit, I prefer the term 'egalitarian' (loosely: that all people should be treated as equals) myself.

      When I think of Abigail Adams or Susan B. Anthony talking out and raising awareness on the indignities of being a second class citizen (due to race or sex), or Emily Murphy fighting to have women be able to provide evidence regarding divorce and sexual assault, the last thing that I think of is hypocrisy.
    • kissit, on 04/08/2008, -0/+4scared....boy, you don't understand feminism, do you? is being a meat head hypocritical?....like Christianity? not saying that you are.... but, maybe, you are. stop being scared of women
    • aprestia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+2Here's a news flash for you. The feminists who cause the most trouble, who say the stupidest things, who fight the most unpopular battle are (like in all part of society) the ones who get all the bad press, which sums up to basically ALL the press. I can understand if some of those things you have heard from of those people say seem hypocritical to you, but those are NOT all feminists, and to make a blanket statement like that about them (and same goes for the Christians actually) is just ignorant.
      Furthermore I submit that not every bra-burning fashion-hating "girl power" promoting college girl is actually a feminist. I'm sure they believe they are, but many women I have encountered have lost sight of what feminism actually means and take it too far down the "pro women" track. Feminism, as TheMoniker said, is about men and women being equal, not about woman being BETTER, which is, I would agree, a highly irritating viewpoint, and could be viewed, by someone without all the facts, as being hypocritical.
  • studdenfadden, on 04/08/2008, -14/+23Feminists can lick my balls.
    • incendiarylvr, on 04/09/2008, -1/+1Cut them off with a spoon first. Then well send them to your sister for a repeat performance.
  • laserblazer, on 04/08/2008, -8/+7Pornography is art, and as such is largely unassailable by moral indignation.
  • HubbertWins, on 04/08/2008, -5/+9Boobs or gtfo...oh, wait...
  • Zong, on 04/08/2008, -5/+12I'm not a female so I don't know how much weight my argument can hold. In my opinion yes... Porn is choice and many porn stars are happy with their job. It may not be something that most women choose. Yes some women are abused and fall into this line of work because of childhood abuse. But no one is holding a gun to these women, they are probably advised by many people to not do it or get out. At the end of the day they do it because they want to. As a feminist you want to be treated equally and have the right to do whatever you want. Porn is just one of those things that women hate it, and women do it. If a feminist lobbies to make porn illegal isn't she taking away the right of women to do what they wish with their bodies. If you want equal treatment you have to take the good with the ugly, thats price of freedom.
    • rootneg2, on 04/09/2008, -0/+3"I'm not a female so I don't know how much weight my argument can hold."

      Your gender *never* has any bearing on how much weight your argument can hold; only it's own cogency, relevance, and veracity. Don't be afraid to call yourself a feminist, and argue just as hard as anyone else on the matter, just because you're a man, so long as you make rational arguments (which you seem to be doing, and well). Keep it up

      --a feminist
    • aprestia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+2I agree with rootneg2. You made a very well reasoned argument. I think the women who do argue against things like porn, prostitution, etc. are largely being swept up in fears about what happens and could happen to women in these industries, without stopping to think about the women who do it because they want to and enjoy it. If you want a well documented account of someone who is a feminist, a prostitute, and loves what she does, look up the blog of Belle de Jour. She's a hero and a true feminist in my mind.
  • MonkeyOverlord, on 04/08/2008, -8/+18Since there are feminists who like porn, I'd say the answer is that they obviously can.

    The real reason that most feminists get upset about porn is because of the fact that for most feminists, feminism is a political justification for their own personal failings in life. Hard time having relationships with men? Blame it on the patriarchy. Can't make a good wage? Blame on it on the glass ceiling (my wife loves to ridicule such women since she makes quite a lot of money on her own merit as a software engineer). Few people find you sexually attractive? Blame it on "western standards of beauty" rather than admit that the odds are strongly against you that you would meet any culture's standard of beauty.

    Porn does exploit some women, but generally women get paid pretty well for it. Show me a day job that will usually pay a few hundred bucks for about 30 minutes of work, and that does not require you to hold a title like "CEO" or "executive vice president."
    • BedPost, on 04/08/2008, -0/+3Of course they don't hold the title of CEO, they're busy holding something else. Perhaps a CEO's something else.
    • gryphon50, on 04/09/2008, -0/+4you could say the same things for these guys who are so violently against feminism. Have a bad divorce, a bad ex-wife? Did girls in high school ignore you? Are the only women interested in you imported from the Phillippines? Blame feminism!
      • aussia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1i'd digg you up twice if I could. could I internet hug you instead?
      • aprestia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1It's ok, I helped!
    • dopplerdog, on 04/09/2008, -0/+4The fact remains that women still earn less than men, as a whole. You could argue that specific women aren't very good at what they do, so they should be paid less than men. Can you do the same for women as a whole? No, unless you're prepared to argue that women as a whole are worse at their jobs than men are.

      Ironically, porn is one of those industries were women are in general better paid than men.
      • KingHumanity, on 06/26/2008, -0/+0They whine about how "hard" they have to work, how much stress they have,and how nobody pampers her like she's a princess because she has a vagina....

        and then they complain about how they get paid less.
        Right now, if any employer tries to pay a woman less than a man for the same abilities shown and jobs done, he'd be F'ed in the A by the feminist laws. So it's not the job, it's YOU. Because you obviously gave them legitimate reasons to pay you less.
  • thomasoa, on 04/08/2008, -1/+13I'm of the mind they *can* exist, but that they usually do not.

    This is like the issue of polygamy, which I have no philosphical objection to, but which, as practiced throughout the world, is usually horribly patriarchal and abusive.

    The message of much of porn seems to be mysogynist, but there is no reason that this has to be, except for the fact that there is a much larger market for mysogynist porn.
    • Seldon2639, on 04/08/2008, -1/+0Interesting twist: there are some evolutionary biologists who argue that polygamy is better for women, while monogamy is better for men. Under polygamy, many women can share the same supporter (who will, presumably be able to take care of them). Under monogamy, one woman reaps the benefits of the best parter, while other women have to accept the refuse. But, the good thing for men is that all of us can find at least some partner
      • FortyCaliber, on 04/08/2008, -1/+1There is an argument that polygamy is better for society as a whole. If one father, who several women find appealing enough to provide children, fathers a child with one or more of them, all of the women would share in the child-rearing responsibilities. Ultimately, the child (that is, the future generation) comes out of the whole ordeal as a better, well-rounded, adult with many different insights and a personality and habit set that mirrors that of many people and not just one or two.
        This was the style of marriage in China for many many centuries. And it also seems to be doing Nature very well as it seems to encourage positive natural selection through male competition and female child-rearing methods.
  • h3smith, on 04/08/2008, -9/+5Aren't porn stars in charge of their bodies? You'd think one of the rennets of Feminism is being in control of your body and doing with it what you please. But, no surprise, Feminists are totalitarians who think everyone should conform to what they think is right.
    • kissit, on 04/08/2008, -0/+4did you even read the article?
    • gryphon50, on 04/09/2008, -0/+0Rennets? You mean tenets right? I'm just a feminist who is pointing out that you're a fool. I'm not totalitarian but I do think you should conform to the rules of the English language.
    • aprestia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1Those aren't actually feminists you're talking about there. They are the morality police and while I suppose a feminist COULD also be a moral bigot, most are not.
  • Electronaddict, on 04/08/2008, -4/+4Hmmmmm!!!! It's really hard to answer that. You know what, put them both in a bikini and a pool of jello and let them battle it out, who ever wins I'll support.
  • Dysarthria, on 04/08/2008, -7/+3Yes, but only if hot feminists (?existance) are in porno films. Otherwise, no.
  • Jaliyl, on 04/08/2008, -22/+10THERE WAS A ***** PROBLEM COMPLETING YOUR ***** REQUEST! PLEASE ***** RELOAD AND TRY AGAIN!

    DIGG NOT ***** SAVED, PLEASE RELOAD THE ***** PAGE AND TRY AGAIN!
  • Kennoad, on 04/08/2008, -6/+5Ever heard of lesbian pron?
    • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -1/+9It's made for men.
      • MRintheKeys, on 04/08/2008, -3/+4Then real lesbians watch gay man porn by your rationale?
        • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -0/+5No. I'm just saying the target audience for "lesbian" pornography is men. I'm not saying no lesbians watch it - it's not like they have much of an alternative.
      • confusednazgul, on 04/08/2008, -3/+2Um, what? That's retarded. Do you honestly believe that lesbians don't have a need/desire for porn? I'm a bisexual woman, and I watch both hetero and lesbian porn. Can you explain that?
        • Kurlumbenus, on 04/08/2008, -3/+3You're a liar. Everyone knows that there are no women on the internet. Anyone who claims otherwise is a cop or a fat balding dude in his mom's basement.
        • Jforsyth89, on 04/08/2008, -0/+5He never said that lesbians don't have a desire for porn. He said that the target audience for lesbian porn is men. And for the most part, it is.
      • aprestia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1Some is, some isn't. I think our biggest problem with porn these days is it IS generally only made really with one intended viewer in mind (usually a straight male) - why can't it just be what it is, and appeal to whoever it appeals to?
  • Nitrodist88, on 04/08/2008, -8/+2Oh, so now Feminism and Porn don't exist? Dumb title..
  • ericdano, on 04/08/2008, -5/+3PORN FTW!
  • alclone, on 04/08/2008, -5/+5They can...

    if you are good at hiding your porn collection
  • enderwiggen16, on 04/08/2008, -10/+1I don't care, I watch porn and I ignore feminists. If porn and feminism got in a fight then porn would ***** destroy feminism.
  • largemonkey23, on 04/08/2008, -6/+1Lol @ "By Nikko Snyder, Bitch Magazine."
  • dungar, on 04/08/2008, -2/+8they are coexisting, aren't they? what more proof do you want.
  • Findeton, on 04/08/2008, -2/+18I'm a feminist and i watch porn. Although i'm a man.
  • x0rcist, on 04/08/2008, -11/+1Feminist bitches always putting the white man down.
  • Joeshie, on 04/08/2008, -9/+3Porn has existed and will continue to exist for centuries. It's a natural part of human desires in both men AND women. Feminists can bitch and whine all they want, porn will continue to exist and remain popular no matter what they do.
  • GanjaGirl, on 04/08/2008, -1/+16As a woman who enjoys porn on a regular basis, I don't think being a pornography enthusiast and a feminist are mutually exclusive. These women are just doing their jobs, it's their choice. Same goes for prostitution and any other sex-related industry.
    • rootneg2, on 04/09/2008, -0/+3...and I suddenly felt a great disturbance in the Digg; as if a thousand voices suddenly fapped out, and friended GangaGirl.


      :o)
    • brad3378, on 04/09/2008, -1/+3Okay okay - you can stay.........but the other women need to get back in the kitchen.
  • dmark77, on 04/08/2008, -7/+4I think feminists will always view a shot in the mouth as degrading.
    • aprestia, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1Nope. I'm a feminist. I let my boyfriend give me facials because I don't really care (it's no grosser than the rest of the act) and he LOVES to jerk off while gazing into my eyes. It's pretty cute, actually.
  • Hetman, on 04/08/2008, -4/+6The feminist do not really have a choice. Pron is not going anywhwere.
    • macslut, on 04/09/2008, -0/+1"Pron is not going anywhwere." My iPhone would disagree with that...if it could talk...maybe it does, but it's too busy playing pron?
  • socketman, on 04/08/2008, -1/+1I don't think either should exist - they are both a blight on our society and culture
  • mogebier, on 04/08/2008, -6/+2Well, seeing as most feminists are ugly old hags, I would say "No"
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