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iTunes guilty of breaking Norwegian law

theregister.co.uk — The Norwegian Consumer Ombudsman has ruled that the Apple iTunes service breaks the law, and has given the company two weeks to fix the problem.

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  • tysat, on 10/12/2007, -48/+94Go Norway for fighting against Apple!
    • invader, on 10/12/2007, -23/+63mac fanboys are going to hunt you down...
    • WinterSolstice, on 10/12/2007, -6/+27I really like iTMS and I really like my Apples, but I have to agree with Norway here.

      Perils of doing business in other countries :)
      First you get the whiney "Why can't I use * here?" (happens in the US with some tech, elsewhere with other). Then you get the lawsuits.

      Frikin greedy people. They started this in the first place... they made the companies and the lawyers like this. (not recently - but greed keeps it rolling) The best thing that could happen is that we would see Apple have different rules there. The likely thing is that Apple will pull out of Norway.

      -WS
    • jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17the best thing you can see happen is apple be more flexible in adapting itself to the laws of the countries it wants to operate in, otherwise ITMS will be pulling out of more and more countries in europe. Apple may hold the worldwide monopoly, but competition is a good thing; and online music downloads is still in its infancy.
    • millixaw, on 10/12/2007, -32/+17Wow you Diggers can't decide if you're pro-Apple or anti-Apple!
    • Hickeroar, on 10/12/2007, -27/+5mill-

      Yeah i've always been confused by that here. Say one thing at one time and get flamed by the fanboi's and say the same thing at another time and everyone loves you. No one can make up their mind!!!
    • zweben, on 10/12/2007, -20/+6Because almost everyone here has a strong opinion; either very pro-Apple or very anti-Apple, and it's a pretty even split.
    • threepio, on 10/12/2007, -4/+25This isn't Pro or Anti Apple - neither of the issues that they've cited in this law are core to Apple's iTunes.

      1. They've written a contract wherein the wording needs to be changed. Fix it, mmkay?
      2. Take accountability for your software. No ifs ands or buts. You wrote it, it's your job to make sure it works. You may have thought you were being witty by writing yourself an out, but it's illegal in Norway. Fix it, mmkay?
      3. The terms of sale are final at the point of sale. Don't piss around and write an out letting you change the deal after the money has changed hands. Fix it, mmkay?

      That being said, these are small issues, easily fixable and should, if things are done right (and I think they will be), be fixed tomorrow. There's no point in fighting this one.
    • BeyondALL, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15Quite funny, Norwegian officials are fighting the stupid DRM'ish Americans while our neighbor country Sweeden officials are licking their feet (Pirate Bay case).
      My solution is not buying from itms - bad product
    • rodeo40, on 10/12/2007, -25/+7Let's see...Norway is about half the size of Chicago...who the hell cares what they think?
    • DoubtfulSalmon, on 10/12/2007, -10/+12Look, there's really nothing to worry about here. Apple will have one of their "representatives" put in a phone call...

      "Hello? Yes? Is this thing... Hello, yeah, look, it's Colon Powell here, is that Sweden? Good, good... Yeah, look, we were wondering if you'd mind just dashing over and invading Norway for us? You will? Great, kthxs. Bye!"


      In Soviet Russia, the government controls commerce.
    • rasterbator, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Well, there goes the Norwegian Apple site. Good luck getting your Apple hardware in the future.
    • EvilPenguins, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13"Yeah i’ve always been confused by that here. Say one thing at one time and get flamed by the fanboi's and say the same thing at another time and everyone loves you. No one can make up their mind!!!"

      It's all about how you say it. If you make a comment that is biased, unnecessarily aggressive, or if you fail to back up your "facts" then you will be modded down. If you add to the discussion then you get modded up.

      I’m sick of people saying that digg is biased against Sony, Microsoft, and Bush. It’s just that on average the Nintendo and Apple lovers and liberals have better arguments to support there opinions. That doesn’t necessarily mean there right either, they just are better at presenting intelligent arguments and backing up there opinions.

      There is and important thing all diggers should remember regardless of there opinion: Don’t want people to hate you? Don’t be a dick.
    • lonnieh, on 10/12/2007, -12/+4@EvilPenguins: Your wrong. Hate me.
    • SystemsGuy, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10God but I love these posts. Don't like iTunes? Simple solution - don't friggin install it.. It would really make my day if Apple simply did the same thing they did with France. You want us to change our policy's? Open-source DRM? Sure - Oh, by the way, we are simply not going to have ITMS France.... What? You will change your mind?

      Don't like the product?! Don't buy it.

      To wrap this up, and put this in perspective.
      Popluation of Norway? 4.5 million.
      Population of Houston, Texas? 4.1 million.
      Apples concerns about selling to Norway? Less than priceless......
    • BeyondALL, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8While Norway is not a big country it's one of the richest in the world with higher prices than Japan - It's a good market and there seems to be lot's of iTunes fanboys here as well...
      Certainly not the biggest market, but could still buy Apple CEO s a couple of nice cars :)
    • VorpalK, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Yea well Apple could just as easily say "meh, one country... not worth it. lets just stop selling there alltogether..."

      I'm not an Apple fanboy, but really... sometimes it's just too much of a PITA to deal with a particular market, and it's time to say "sorry, we don't want your money that much".

    • sithlord78, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This ruling is unjustified. You make a song file that only your player can play. So what? I'm sure they sell Xboxes, PlayStations, and GameCubes in Norway. Do they force Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo to make their games compatible with each other? Sure there are 3rd parties that make titles for all 3 systems, but none of them are forced to make them cross-compatible. What the other companies should do is ask Apple to allow them to make their MP3 players compatible with Ipod and give Apple a royalty.
  • flashboca, on 10/12/2007, -27/+16And the global tides are starting to turn against iTunes and Apple. Pretty obvious that this is similar to what happened with Microsoft. Governments just fear big companies with a near monopoly. (and no...don't embarrass yourselves by talking about MS's monopolistic practices, or how iTunes is not a monopoly, because both are about the same as Microsofot's monopoly and practices.)
  • TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -5/+38This is because the English contract and the Norwegian legalisties of contracts differ. In America, Apple isn't liable for any damage thier program may cause on your system. In Norway, Apple is supposed to be held liable.


    I personally hate the fact that you have to download iTunes when you try to download QuickTime. (last time i checked)
    • BaldMonkey, on 10/12/2007, -4/+32You can get Quicktime without iTunes here. But they worked hard to hide the links to the page.
      http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/standalone.html
    • vedichymn, on 10/12/2007, -24/+8You've always been able to download quicktime standalone, the link isn't even particularly hidden.

      http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/standalone.html

      e:f:b
    • TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12[sarcasm]thanks. reminded me of Microsoft there for a minute....[/sarcasm]
    • DoubtfulSalmon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11http://www.codecguide.com get QuickTime Alternative from here, quicktime capability with as much evil as possible stripped out of it. They have similar things for Real Player and Microsoft crap too. I usually get the "Mega Codec Pack" and the Microsoft codecs (under "other downloads") when setting up a new box. (This stuff is all for Win32 BTW)

    • NickelSax, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1gerr... sorry
    • jimoase, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2The who caused what finger pointing to prove what software did the dirty should prove to be interesting. I am sure many of us have managed software or hardware project during which a problem crops up and every group involved points the finger at any other group but their own and have wonderful explainations to support their conclusion.

      Windows is not exactly a stable operating system when exposed to the internet. Imagine trying to prove the recent instability is being caused by a single source and that source is iTunes. All this without access to the source code for all software involved. What were they thinking when that law was considered?

      Jim
  • iAlex, on 10/12/2007, -41/+1Lol, as France did. All these laws, Why can't world have same laws?
    • letaalio, on 10/12/2007, -4/+47I wouldn't want American laws.
    • superal1394, on 10/12/2007, -4/+39I want swedish law, down with the DMCA!
    • arvster, on 10/12/2007, -2/+30Thank you, but no. I prefer not to have DMCA and other crap that US has. I am perfectly fine without such universal laws ;)
    • FrostyFire, on 10/12/2007, -27/+18"coz 'mericah is the bestest ***** in the werld!" - President George W. Bush.
    • grendelwraith, on 10/12/2007, -4/+32Because not everyone in the world thinks the same, looks the same, dresses the same, prays the same, mourns the same, eats the same way or things.

      Oh and not everyone believes that America and it small population, should tell everyone else what to do.
    • TriZz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Because the world has different governments...

      ...did you really just ask that?
    • sapo916, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Maybe one day we will have universal law and no borders but the way people are I wouldn't expect it in your lifetime.
    • cezar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7"Maybe one day we will have universal law and no borders but the way people are I wouldn't expect it in your lifetime."

      And nor should we. The problem with universal law is that there becomes no escape from an oppressive/bad law. Best example, gay marrage banned, universally.
    • stomicron, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6"I wouldn't want American laws."

      "Thank you, but no. I prefer not to have DMCA and other crap that US has. I am perfectly fine without such universal laws ;)"

      I don't think anyone here nominated American law to be the world standard.
    • rebrad, on 10/12/2007, -7/+5You have to admit, Nazi Imperialist that run big oppressive corporations like Apple give America a bad name. The only rights that Steve Jobs cares about is his right hand in your pocket. Think Different.
    • alphaterminus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Becausse Islamofascist countries have laws that suck. Women can't drive or show thier face or wear shorts. And most of us in western countries don't wipe our bare asses with are left hand and no longer live in 1382.
      /Racist... perhaps as I hate fascists of any breed. Currently, Islamofascists want a one world goverment under their pedophilic Allah
  • TheFinestShadow, on 10/12/2007, -20/+5Awesome. This is just awesome.
    • IpodCrazy, on 10/12/2007, -18/+3^^FrostyFire
      Stop stereotyping us southerners you *****!!! We all don't talk like that.
      -Sincerely,
      Tennessee
    • FrostyFire, on 10/12/2007, -8/+6I stereotype because of comments like these "Lol, as France did. All these laws, Why can't world have same laws?".

      Don't act like stereotyping isn't a part of daily life.
  • terminalpariah, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20In Norway, if you're found guilty of grand theft auto, do you have two weeks to give the car back?
    I should move to Norway.
    • TheCount, on 10/12/2007, -34/+8Do they even have cars in Norway?
    • FrostyFire, on 10/12/2007, -6/+33No, they ride polar bears.

      Moron.
    • Styleboost, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20As a Norwegian I can verify that we ride around on polar bears instead of using dirty, polluting cars. Polar bear food is the new oil.
    • sapo916, on 10/12/2007, -16/+2Polar Bear ***** is clean?
    • psyon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Well, it acts as a great fertilizer. Just dont burn it for heating fuel and your fine.
  • ph30nix, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9There goes ITMS for Norway...

    I don't buy music on iTunes...anyone want to explain what specifically in the ToS is bothering Norway? Or is it just because it's written in English legalese? Doesn't ITMS give you back your music if your computer hiccups and you lose it?
    • teherga, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8No it does not because you are technically not buying music off of iTunes. I lost some when I had to reformat and said the hell with buying it again and pirated the stuff I lost.
    • camiller, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Generally no, ITMS does not let you re-download purchased music. There have been some instances of Apple allowing it ONE TIME ONLY if you ask nicely, but it is not an automatic thing.
    • grendelwraith, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14It is a pretty standard American software clause that does not fly in other countries.

      Specifically "By installing this software the End User is unable to pursue the Publisher for any damage the Product causes to their system"

      Kind of like saying "Sorry Windows Blue Screened and you lost your doctoral thesis. We are not liable for any damages our software may cause"

      Get out of jail free cards are not honored outside of Monopoly just like American laws are not honored elsewhere except by treaty.
    • LocoMan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4According to the article, the three points they talk about are the fact that the contract says that it's regulated by US law (I believe all EULAs say that), the take responsibility for damages caused by the product, and the fact that they reserve the right to change the contract at any time (which would affect the songs you've bought since they're managed by itunes). I'd guess they would have the same problems with any EULA since I believe all (or most) of them have those three items on them, but I guess they're going against itunes first because unlike most eulas apple does have a way to enforce it (by updating itunes). Or that's how I see it, at least.
    • tarzan99, on 10/12/2007, -12/+3read the ***** article. It's explained there
    • vramdal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6The Ombudsman's concerns has to do Apple's lock-in:

      "Sales at iTunes are downloaded in a format expressly designed to be played on iPods, and if users want to play their music in another format on another advice after purchase, they must violate their agreement."

      http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1342991.ece
    • ph30nix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I did read the article Tarzan, unfortunately, "The regulator said it was not reasonable that the consumer must sign up to a contract regulated by English law, rather than Norwegian law. It also said iTunes must accept responsibility for damage its software may do, and said it is unreasonable to alter terms and conditions after a song has been sold." really doesn't say what was violated other than " iTunes breaks section 9a of the Norwegian Marketing Control Act" - It would help if the article said what the Act included, not what was "not reasonable".

      Based on what was said by the article, I agree with LocoMan, because very few hardware/software vendors are going to take responsibility for damage unless a warranty is involved... And if you have to request your downloads back from ITMS, and some of you seem to know what it is, then there is a warranty of sorts involved, you just have to request it.
    • camiller, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@locoman

      Not US Law, English Law. As in England.
    • Rayonic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@grendelwraith :

      It's perfectly reasonable to have most software companies not liable for damages. If you're too stupid to keep backups of important documents, then that's not Microsoft's fault.

      Software can fail for any number of reasons. The hardware hiccups or fails, a separate program destabalizes the system, or even just the wide array of possible hardware configurations and software inputs. 100% failsafe software cannot be made.

      What kind of software is guaranteed to work, on pain of lawsuit or contractual penalty? Flight control software, medical equipment software, automobile software, bank transaction software, and the like. Serious applications where people could die or millions of dollars could be lost. If you're relying, I mean absolutely life-or-death *relying* on your personal computer or anything running on it, then you're stupid.
    • camiller, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1oops.
    • DoubtfulSalmon, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4@grendelwraith: "Sorry Windows Blue Screened and you lost your doctoral thesis. We are not liable for any damages our software may cause"

      Serves you right for (a) writing your doctoral thesis on windows, and (b) for not having copies of it scattered all over the house, the office, etc.

      (Fate will probably be cruel to me when it comes my turn. I know heaps of people who have been through the pain of a PhD (and not an easy American one either!), and a good many of those have "lost the lot" at some point. Scary)
    • Sagarian, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6American PhD's are easy? Must be why the rest of the world has flocked here for decades for our low-quality, cakewalk post-secondary education/research institutions.
    • Punani, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@camiller:

      I believe the English law reference is not specifically used in the sense of the limitations and established rules of UK law, but the English common law traditions that US and UK law are based on.
  • EmilioLizardo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7"The Consumer Council has asked Apple to respond as to whether iTunes should work on other platforms"

    They have it backwards, they should require Apple to make the interfaces and specs to their online store so other music programs like:

    http://www.songbirdnest.com/

    can be used just like Microsoft is being required to by the EU.





    • EmilioLizardo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"Apple to make the interfaces and specs to their online store so other music programs"

      Apple to make the interfaces and specs to their online store public so other music programs...
    • Kyderdog, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4songbird = Crap...
      Horrible piece of software..couldn't wait to remove it...maybe 2.0 Might be better we will see
  • colincornaby, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I'm all against big business and stuff, but it sounds like Norway is risking loosing iTunes. They want Apple to be liable for data loss caused by free software? It's hard to demand Apple pay for any data loss incurred when you didn't pay them for the program to begin with. What if the Songbird people had to be held liable if their program caused data loss? And how are you supposed to return songs? This isn't technologically possible. You could buy a song, copy the file, return the song, and then play the copy. Apple's DRM was designed so that all songs that belong to you have the same key. Apple can only stop you from playing all your songs, not just one. I'm guessing Apple may pull out of Norway if this isn't reversed.
    • TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5"I'm all against big business and stuff.."

      What? Are you serious? How can you live with yourself?
    • colincornaby, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3It's simple. I don't expect Apple to be liable for damages iTunes causes to my computer for the same reason I don't expect Ubuntu to pay for any damages their software may cause to my computer. It's free software. If everyone had to be held liable for damages their software caused, we wouldn't see any free software because no one could afford to pay the liabilities on free software.
    • BeyondALL, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4"I'm all against big business and stuff.."

      So if your company is successful and make the big bucks you would jump of a bridge?
      That is if you are working at all or just against all companies :)
  • sbovisjb1, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4i dont buy music (go devil torrents.... if you can find them). Anyways what they say is fair. Its Norways laws NOT the States. America always interfears in other people business, regradless of what the world community says. It doesnt matter that their are local laws and cutoms, screw them and go ahead anyways. Based on this interferience (including apple) there will be a bitch fight on this and Apple will presumptously refuse to pay the fine, or be forced to pay millions of dollars to have the Terms Of Service edited for every country....
    • camiller, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Typically in contract law the contract can specify what jurisdictions laws apply. This has nothing to do with America interfering and everything to do with Apples contract. Now if Apples contract is trying to make legal something that is expressly illegal that is something else entirely.

      Not only am I not a Lawyer but I know even less about Norwegian law. The above should be taken in that context and I welcome any informed replies that clarify my knowledge of Norwegian contract law.
    • camiller, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5BTW, ITMS Europe is based in Luxembourg and the terms specify it is bound by English (i.e. United Kingdom) law, not US laws. Sorry to pull the rug out from under your America bashing.
  • webpoet73, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7Apple is selling music with their DRM. What I don't understand is: If you don't want their DRM, why buy from ITMS? Nobbody is forcing you to buy from the ITMS. On top of that, if you do, rip the songs to cd and then re-encode them into another player like WMP and then you can listen them there. You probably won't get a CDDB loading of the ID3 tag, though.

    There are also other alternatives to ITMS, it's not like it is the only one.
  • gukid, on 10/12/2007, -11/+2If I were apple, I would just block access to iTunes in Norway or put in the terms and agreements that people residing in Norway could not sign up for the service. Problem solved.
    • iSEPIC, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9I would just raid and take down ALL OF ITUNES servers, until the case has been investigated for several weeks, allowing itunes to lose revenue, just like Pirate Bay, an eye for an eye, aye aye.
  • blue07, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1From http://forbrukerportalen.no/Artikler/2006/1149587055.44
    "The terms, both technical and written ones, are not unique to iTunes. Many other companies employ similar ones. We anticipate that the Ombudsman will also pursue these, initially the music shops mentioned in our complaint.

    Several Norwegian record shops have said they will start downloading services this year. This case puts severe constraints on the formulation of their terms and on their service to customers," Torgeir Waterhouse says."
  • BrandonRohan9, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Atleast the Norwegians know they don't have to abide by US laws... too bad sweden isn't as bright....
    • camiller, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I mentioned this above, but will repeat here.

      ITMS Europe is based in Luxembourg and the terms specify it is bound by English (i.e., England, i.e., United Kingdom) law, not US laws.

      I am now wondering if there is anything in the EU laws/charter/etc. that would allow ITMS Europe to specify which EU member state's law can have effect. Is Norway a member of the EU? Is there something within it's membership agreement that would makes Apples position more tenable?

      If anyone more conversant in how the EU vs. EU member state relationship works at a legal level please let us know. I am truly curious.

      Edit: OK, I checked and Norway is not a EU member state, so nevermind the EU stuff.
    • BeyondALL, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Norway is not a member o the EU, but still a member of the EEC
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area
      Therefore we have a close relationship with EU on lots of things, but still have most of our own laws intact....
  • shawnz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Did anyone else get the idea to start a country, get internet access to it, and create enough laws to sue microsoft into the ground?
  • GlassCasket, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8This is total *****.

    "Apple has to respond by 21 June or face fines."

    I love it how big corporations have a deadline to fix their legal issues, orelse they get fined. But if it's a customer doing anything illegal, you better watch the ***** out, because you'll get charged without knowing.
    • Poco, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6It isn't the same. Apple didn't DO anything illegal, the courts just don't like the wording of the contract and have asked them to change it.

      I'm sure if a private citizen created a web site with a poorly worded contract they would be given a few days to fix it too. It's not like Apple stole a car.
  • iSEPIC, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9Why haven't the itunes servers been raied and taken down? ***** up world we live in.
    • ozroy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2TPB have recieved many many legal notifications. iTunes have now recieved 1. TPB ignored those legal notifications to remove content, so the authorities took action. If Apple choose to continue to break the law then the authorities will probably take action, but so far they haven't done that.
  • leedh, on 10/12/2007, -8/+0Why do people care about this (why do I care?). It is just a matter of fixing some legalese. If apple takes a dump- the apple fanboys will praise it and the apple haters will say it smells like *****.
    • GlassCasket, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I really don't give a *****. I was simply stating the fact that it's ridiculous how big coorporations, such as Apple simply get told to fix legal issues by the court without getting fined.
    • BaldMonkey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Because not all of us live in the US.
  • infra172, on 10/12/2007, -17/+4***** Norway and everybody who lives there.
  • iAlex, on 10/12/2007, -10/+1FFS, -18 diggs for a nica idea? Did I say it had to be BAD laws? Nah, so STFU. -.-
  • Poco, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5No digg - Lame.

    What's next? "Google updates word 7 in paragraph 32 section 5 of their employee contract NDA and changes the word 'a' with 'an' ".

    Who cares but a few lawyers?
    • loftx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Stuff like that is actually pored over very closely on webmasterworld.com and other Adwords/Adsense related communities :-)
  • mhockey14221, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2This doesnt matter to Apple. Id be surprised if Norway constituted more than 3% of iTunes' revenue. They'll pull out of Norway, the people there who own iPods will get mad at their government for their lack of foresight, and Apple wont feel a thing.

    All its going to do is hurt Norweigan consumers.
  • skellener, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2All this means is no more iTunes or iPods for Norway.
  • thespace, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Na na na na ... na na na na ... hey hey hey ... farvel, på gjensyn!!!!!
  • LeeTXJD, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"it is unreasonable to alter terms and conditions after a song has been sold."

    I am amazed at how even in Tech articles this myth gets perpetuated. When you download a song from an online service you buy a license to listen to the song - you don't buy it. That is the problem with the current online music model. The way is should be is the purchase of the song to use as you like (other than republishing, etc) for your own use.
  • gxcdesign, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3It's only songs they are buying...
  • WackyT, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Apple really needs to be more open to the rest of the market. Being totally monopolistic is not good, especially if they want iTunes to continue to exist.
  • prh99, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7If it were up to the Apple fanboys, Apple be writing there own laws. That's not how it works, Apple decided to do buisness in Norway, now they have follow the law in that country. Do it, pay the fine, or leave, what is there to debate here?
    • seanmac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Nothing to debate, it's just the diggers are surprised that Apple might be in violation of a law...Newsflash: companies break laws unintentionally and intentionally all the time. And the headline is stupid: A piece of software can't break a law (at least not yet, AI is not that smart yet). A company or a software developer can break a law.
    • SystemsGuy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Newsflash : Show me Microsofts UAL for Norway. Hmm, looks a lot like Microsofts ULA for the states.

  • mattmiz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2No digg. The summary isn't even correct. They gave Apple two weeks to respond, after which another date would be set, not two weeks to fix the problem.
    • ginzberg, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Thank you for clarifying. That seemed pretty extreme. Though, you could play devil's advocate and say, if a company wishes to globalize, they must do their research prior to entering the new markets, and if they fail to do so, the punishment may very well deserve to be strict.
    • SystemsGuy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Or they can choose to exit your market place. Norway? Sorry, we don't sell iPods - or Mac's - to Norway. Thanks, please call again.
  • min_t, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Does this mean they don't use Windows OS in Norway? What other kinds of software are being sold that are not "made in Norway" that fail this test?
  • hawkster99, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I think this dude is Norwegian...and he raises some rather interesting questions concerning you Norwegians here.
    http://madman.einars.net/main/2006/06/07/itunes-guilty-of-breaking-norwegian-law/
  • ReikiMaster, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1We all wish we had more flexibility with apple. It won't ever happen, they need their music and so making the studios happy is a big deal.

    I would not be surprised if apple just pulled completely out of Norway. Cheaper to just drop the country instead of making changes to a system that they already know is a successful one.
  • Tyrel, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2So companies are now announcing announcements. I'll bet they even announced this announcement too.
  • Arramol, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"In January, the Consumer Council asked the Ombudsman to look at iTunes because of concerns that it breaks consumer protection law."

    Where's OUR consumer protection law?!
  • f777, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2It's official now: iTunes is illegal. Time for the RIAA to shut it down.
  • Skydive72, on 10/12/2007, -5/+0Of all the countries to try and ban iTunes .... it had to be NORWAY???!

    You just took away 3% of the desktop consumers from touring your country!!

    Skydive72
    http://www.talktrust.com (ext: 784325)
  • SmartITGuy, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0I bet ten thousand zillion dollars...
    Just like they almost did in France, Apple will pull out of any country where they can't operate their exclusionary monopoly as 'they' see fit.

    Apple doesn't follow rules, they MAKE rules! Anywhere their rules are threatened, they'll just pack up their marbles and go home.

    If I can quote some Southpark here:
    Cartman: "Screw you guys, I'm going home!"
    Norway: "Yeah, bu-"
    Cartman (interrupts): "Screw you guys ...Home!"
  • hayden.evans, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Yeah Seriously. If these countries don't agree with something Apple is doing, ***** 'em. They don't need to tailor their company to Norwegian law because it is not a Norwegian based company. I say pull out. Screw 'em.
    • who99, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Well hayden.evans ...if they want to do business in Norway...they have to follow Norwegian law. It's as simple as that. Do you think a Norwegian company could have done business in USA if they didn't follow the laws there?!?
  • ejm508, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3To all you dumbasses who are ranting about American law this and American law that: this story has NOTHING to do with American Law!
  • themacman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2i live in Norway, and i have to think that apple will not change its TOS much to accommodate our "laws" in this matter, i don't really see apple just closing shop in Norway either...
  • simonjp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm no lawyer, but I can tell you that "English law" is the correct term here. If you are doing business internationally, the two parties must agree which legal system will be followed for those transactions. Apple are demanding that the Laws of England and Wales should be used, whereas Norway (on behalf of its people) are disagreeing.
  • NoSalt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0When are these piss-ant little countries (ahem ... France and Norway) going to realise that Apple does not care about their "penny ante" business??? Apple can just leave that country and it won't hurt them one bit.
    • themacman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I agree, it wont hurt Apple at all if they pull out of Norway, but the negative press following pulling out of a country could damage the iTunes Music Store's positive reputation, more so than the small financial consequences it will lead to...
  • TOKIO, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Disclaimer: I am a Norwegian who does not live in Norway, and I like Apple computers and even Apple iPods, but I am not in favor of iTunes nor any sale of compressed music files with DRM attached.

    The most interesting points of the Norwegian Ombudsman's complaint against iTunes is:

    (1) Whether Apple can use DRM to limit their Itunes Music Files to be played on only their iPods: This is interesting because also computer software and game software are usually limited to only be useable on one type of compatible machines. If you want another version of the same software (if availlable) for another type of machine, you need to make another purchase for the other machine. It is also worth noticing that Apple's agreement with the record companiesand/or owners of the rights to the music is based on the fact that the music should be confined to use on only this one type of player. Also in this connection it is worth noticing that it is in the record companies' interest that the same music (same artist, same song) is sold as many times as possible on as many media as possible so it creates the greatest total revenue to the record companies.

    As seen from Apple's (and the record companies') point of view, removing the DRM (or making it playable on any MP3 etc player, it would violate the original agreement, and the entire business model would collapse. So the Norwegian legal attempt could make a domino effect of detstroying the entire business model.

    On the other hand, the Norwegian Ombudsman's attempt to protect the consumer against iTunes would be much better served by announcing to the same consumer that the same music is availlable in uncompressed form (1411kbps vs 128kbps) without any restricting DRM at roughly the same price if you buy the CD versus buying the compressed files with DRM from iTunes. Who in their right mind is wasting their money on this. The answer is: The same consumer who the Ombudsman is trying to protect. Moral: The Consumer obviously needs protection against his own stupidity.

    (2) The restriction of consumers right to compensation.

    If the Norwegian Ombudsman gets through with his demand that the software supplier (in tghis case a music file) is to be responsible for the hardware if damaged by a virus who presumeably got through a security hole in the software, we will see a gigantic can of worms open up making every computer software manufacturer responsible for any possible hardware damage caused either directly or indirectly by the software itself (the legal system would get very busy and tied down if this was made into law). This works against common practise in the entire software industry, and I suspect it would seriously reduce the amount of availlable software and slow down to the extreme any development of new software.

    I seriously do not think the Norwegian ombudsman understand the implications of his demand, especially if this became the worldwide norm.

    (3) Application of cooling off period to electronic sales of music and other software.

    This is an extremely shortsighted and ignorant demand from the Ombudsman, since obviously returning a (by that time copied) music and/or other software to the seller for a monetary refund would make it entirly unintersting for any electronic reseller of music and/or other software to operate at all.

    Maybe Norway will become the first entirely commercially software free country in the world!

    *************

    This much said; I agree with many other commments herin (Digg.com) that the inteligent consumer should be more than capable of buying music in a form that has no DRM attached and also is not compressed (like various downloadable music files, not only iTunes). It is simply STUPID to buy them when the same music is availlable on CD (and also sometimes LP and other formats) for pretty much the same money.

    And I remind you that iPods from Apple (that I personally like, and have bought several) can very well be used for playing uncompressed music files ripped from my own (and paid for) CD's. I do not have a single DRM file on any of my iPods, and they sound a hell of a lot better than any compressed iTunes file with DRM (I have tried other friend's players with such files).

    Cheers!

  • Kanonkas, on 02/21/2008, -0/+0A trade agreement with a consumer must be balanced, also in the digital sphere. The Consumer Council has seen a trend where terms of agreement, technical blocks and their legal protection have led to a reduction in the rights of consumers and their opportunities to use cultural material,” Waterhouse says

    I can say this in another way if you've got a windows vista system and for no reason starts to "work" and it's no virus or anything and you still have a guarantee on it and you get a new windows vista on the computer or a new pc whereas, is Microsoft fault but in the TOS saying "We are not responsible for any damages" same thing you HAVE the right for any DAMAGES caused by Microsoft to be fixed by Microsoft they can't just say : We are not responsible for any damages whereas they have done it mostly this only will work if it's in the "Time frame" by then I mean how long the guarantee is on it same thing with iTunes, the damage caused by iTunes is, you can't have their "DRM" Audio on any other Music player, mp3 due to the DRM audio, which clearly breaks norwegian law because you've bought it and have all the rights to use it on any other Music Player and should not be DRM.

    Most of these problems are in the digital world.
  •  

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