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- stuf, on 10/11/2007, -11/+117"not to mention than most mac users don't give a ... about what runs underneath their pretty desktop scheme."
You're still on FAT16, aren't you! - zwei, on 10/11/2007, -6/+68If true, this is probably what caused the release delay. I still expect other super cool features to debut on the 11th, but this may be the corner stone for some of them.
- andrewcod, on 10/11/2007, -1/+61I don't think this will be one of the top secret features, as ZFS support is already present in the public developer builds of Leopard. Not very top secret, is it? I think a new Finder and UI/colourscheme, etc. are more likely to be labeled as the top secret stuff.
- smspence, on 10/11/2007, -10/+64@rued:
Still pushing your blog spam on us huh? When will you guys at 9to5mac learn? - geniusj, on 10/11/2007, -0/+52@c2h6o
Have you ever used ZFS? Many of its features (snapshots, storage pools, location-based quotas, checksumming, compression) are pretty much useful everywhere. Even if end-users aren't taking advantage of it DIRECTLY, application developers and Apple can use such features to develop more useful and flexible applications. Similar to getting new/better APIs, it doesn't help the user directly, but since it helps developers, the user benefits. Remember, creating 'filesystems' using ZFS is trivial and non-destructive. I'm sure you'll see applications creating their own filesystems with their own properties/quotas in the future.
@NSResponder (jcr),
While it is fine under HFS+, it's still not as efficient as it would be under ZFS. ZFS stores changes at a block-level, whereas the rsync-style method that Apple is using for HFS+, stores these changes at a file level. In addition to that, you have a surprising amount of storage that's being wasted with the HFS+ method storing directory entries for each "snapshot." Directories can chew quite a bit of space, believe it or not. Also, let's not forget that ZFS snapshots are truly a snapshot in time, so you end up with a globally consistent backup. And last but not least, ZFS filesystems can be compressed (they are by default). - varmit, on 10/11/2007, -1/+51http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS
From there:
"It features high capacity, the integration of the concepts of filesystem and volume management, a novel on-disk structure, lightweight instances, and easy storage pool management."
"Storage Pools
Unlike a traditional file system, which resides on a single device and thus requires a volume manager to use more than one device, ZFS is built on top of virtual storage pools called zpools. A pool is constructed from virtual devices (vdevs), each of which is either a raw device, a mirror (RAID 1) of one or more devices, or a RAID-Z group of two or more devices. The storage capacity of all vdevs is available to all of the file system instances in the zpool.
A quota can be set to limit the amount of space a file system instance can occupy, and a reservation can be set to guarantee that space will be available to a file system instance."
"Dynamic Striping
Dynamic striping across all devices to maximize throughput means that as additional devices are added to the zpool, the stripe width automatically expands to include them, thus all disks in a pool are used, which balances the write load across them."
Also, Info can be found here: http://www.sun.com/2004-0914/feature/ - Gorrondonuts, on 10/11/2007, -5/+52Should I feel stupid because I had to do some research to figure out what the hell that means?
- easy4lif, on 10/11/2007, -3/+41At this point I'm certain I'm gonna get leopard as soon as it comes out + a new Mac. my only question will be how ZFS will benefit me me as a user over journaled HFS?
- locnguyen, on 10/11/2007, -2/+38It's good to see Apple advancing it's OS as usual. How about getting Java up to date too!
- enicholas, on 10/11/2007, -0/+36@andrewcod: ZFS isn't really in the current developer seeds.
The first seed in which somebody noticed a reference to ZFS had it listed in Disk Utility as a format choice, and also included the zfs and zpool commands. That spilled the beans. However, it didn't really work -- it was almost impossible to actually format a volume as ZFS, and even when I finally managed to get through a format, the filesystem hosed itself within minutes.
The next seed had ZFS removed as an option from Disk Utility, and the zfs and zpool commands now just say "Unable to initialize ZFS library". It has remained that way ever since, up to and including the current seed.
A couple of points:
A) We knew Apple was working on ZFS support, but there's a big difference between "working on it" and "it will definitely ship in Leopard", so this is an important confirmation. Especially given the flakiness above.
B) Nothing about this says to me that ZFS wasn't supposed to be a top-secret feature. This has "accidental release into the wild followed by hasty retraction" written all over it.
C) If ZFS is the default filesystem for Leopard, that means boot support. That is BIG news, and certainly qualifies as a secret feature. - totorototoro, on 10/11/2007, -8/+42just an ATI joke, dude. lighten up. :p
- kmedlin, on 10/11/2007, -5/+39@ c2h6o
".... not to mention than most mac users don't give a ... about what runs underneath their pretty desktop scheme."
That's a pretty broad generalization. My terminal window is open about 90% of the time I'm working on my macbook. I spend plenty of time outside of my "pretty desktop scheme."
Similarly, I'd have to say that the windows UI is MUCH more configurable and the percentage of users of Windows OS's vs Apple's that customize the heck out of their UI to make it pretty would debunk your estimatation as well.
I live in both worlds so I don't have that big of a bent either way. I just wanted to make sure you were understanding that iPhoto and garageband users don't represent the broad spectrum of Apple owners out there. - inkhead, on 10/11/2007, -8/+40ZFS rocks! Storage Pools, ZFS is so f*cking fast. It's filesystem for the this century.
- turpenine, on 10/11/2007, -18/+48because we all know steve jobs is the one and only developer of macOSX
- NSResponder, on 10/11/2007, -17/+46"Time Machine, which requires ZFS to be space efficient"
Nope. It's fine under HFS+.
-jcr - jsully, on 10/11/2007, -2/+29What's more important 2% of your CPU, or 100% of your normally non-redundant data? CPU's these days have plenty of extra horsepower, and I can't think of a better use for it.
- mateo60, on 10/11/2007, -16/+41I thought everyone knew this as a given after seeing Time Machine, which requires ZFS to be space efficient.
- rspeed, on 10/11/2007, -2/+23Yes, because normal users don't mind corrupted data.
- danbiz3, on 10/11/2007, -2/+22I want so badly to by a Macbook because they just updated them and are currently doing the free Nano promotion for college students, but what would truly seal the deal would be a free upgrade to Leopard. I could just wait until October to buy one, but then I will be wondering if I should wait until January to see if they update them again at MacWorld. What's a fanboy to do : )
- wonderchemist, on 10/11/2007, -0/+19@MrCalifornia: boot support means you can boot off of a zfs filesystem. Something that is currently undoable even on Solaris.
- Elranzer, on 10/11/2007, -12/+30ZFS is neato, but I hope it isn't case-sensitive (or at least the OS X version isn't case-sensitive) otherwise it's going to break a lot of apps. If you don't believe me, try installing a few Adobe and Symantec apps on a HFS+ case-sensitive partition.
- MacParrot, on 10/11/2007, -2/+20Chances are either the MacBooks or MacBook Pros will be updated at Macworld 2008. However if you let fear of updates stop you from buying, you'll never buy.
Look at it this way. You want to buy a MacBook because Apple is giving a free nano with each edu purchase. That nano would probably cost you about however much Leopard is going to be. Don't think of it as a free iPod, think of it as a free eventual upgrade to Leopard.
Buy whatever tech stuff you need as you need it. Buyer's remorse be damned. - maxplanar, on 10/11/2007, -0/+17Huge news that has been suspected for quite some time. It's presumably the 'engine' behind Time Machine for a start, but ultimately will have wide and deep implications and makes OSX a radically modern OS. HFS+ was getting long in the tooth, so this is fantastic news. Now we just have to hope for an entirely rewritten Finder...
- zwei, on 10/11/2007, -7/+23This is very good news!
- Neem, on 10/11/2007, -4/+18No, you were just uninformed which is the most persistent problem for humanity, as everyone is infinitely uninformed. You should feel stupid if after doing all the research, reading the wikies, and reading the article you cant figure out what it is, or why it is a good thing.
- Angostura, on 10/11/2007, -1/+15The DiskWarrior guys are going to holding their heads in their hands about now.
- digguserer, on 10/11/2007, -1/+13The biggest features for the average user are non-hardware raid and snapshots. I use both and they are great for building redundant storage and restoring deleted files. I assume snapshots will be integrated with TimeMachine and therefore much easier to use in Mac as opposed to Solaris.
- zodieman, on 10/11/2007, -0/+12I had a feeling ZFS was going to be the new file system in OS X eventually. However I wonder how they will pull off the migration/conversion?
Will a reformat be required or are they going to do like MS does with FAT32/NTFS convert command? - geniusj, on 10/11/2007, -0/+12@trghpy,
No. I don't see where you get that. ZFS can actually be compressed (very quickly too), so you'd actually gain space. - ThatsUnpossible, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11There is no way on Earth that Apple will use a default filesystem in a case sensitive mode.
- edebolt, on 10/11/2007, -9/+20the linux weenies are suddenly quiet. Where is the OSX abuse we usually endure?
- Ireland, on 10/11/2007, -2/+12This is 'Zi File System' !!
- Emery, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10Great podcast explaining the implications of ZFS for OSX:
http://feeds.pixelcorps.com/feeds/macbreak_tech.xml
Its long but you should get a very clear idea of why this is so important after listening. - digguserer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10@wonderchemist
Boot support is not in Solaris, but is currently in OpenSolaris and as a result released to the public. I haven't tried it yet, but have read many postings of those that use it. Boot support is an awesome feature and allows for simple clones and if you snapshot before patches or installations, it is great for backing out mistakes :) - digguserer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9@xspinkickx
Boot support was added in build 62. It is released and works. - zioxide, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9Get the free nano and don't worry about the Leopard upgrade. It's only $69 for students, while the nano is $199.
- Bartboy919, on 10/11/2007, -1/+10Does that mean I have to buy ANOTHER damn version of Macdrive?!?
- rasterbator, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9@NSResponder:
Fine under HFS+
BETTER under ZFS natively - NerdOfPrey, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8PCPro did a good UNIX file-systems write-up a few months ago, which went into some detail about the workings and benefits of ZFS:
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/realworld/102179/choosing-a-file-system/page1.html
The ZFS specific stuff appears on the fourth page, but previous sections provide a useful pretext, so I wouldn't recommend skipping over them:
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/realworld/102179/choosing-a-file-system/page4.html - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8I can say only one thing - very cheap snapshots and clones!
(see the wikipedia article for more info) - gutistg, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10@almalax19
I agree, but shut up. - staan, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8This is going to break a lot of Dashboard Widgets. I usually set up my systems with a case-sensitive filesystem (the default is case-insensitive), which exposes lots of QA issues with widgets. Most of them have files which are named incorrectly, but work due to the default case-insensitive filesystem.
As soon as you switch that, the files aren't read, and the widget won't work properly, and in many cases, won't install at all.
Maybe this will help widget developers suck less. - Balanced, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9Resource Fork made some very cool stuff possible, though.
- Chewie67, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10No. The quote is:
"In fact, this week you'll see that Apple is announcing at their Worldwide Developer Conference that ZFS has become the file system in Mac OS 10."
I'd like to hope that it will be the default, but until I hear Steve Jobs say it at WWDC, I don't buy it.. - gers4302, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7@Kolenka
Yes, remote replication is possible
Remote replication – Use the zfs send and zfs receive commands when you want to copy a file system from one system to another. This process is different from a traditional volume management product that might mirror devices across a WAN. No special configuration or hardware is required. The advantage of replicating a ZFS file system is that you can re-create a file system on a storage pool on another system, and specify different levels of configuration for the newly created pool, such as RAID-Z, but with identical file system data.
http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819-5461/6n7ht6qsc?a=view - digguserer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Well.. Depending upon your workload, it may still get fragmented because of the COW method that it utilizes..but its advantages vastly outweigh the slight cpu overhead and fragmentation. Being able to patch your system and back that patch out instantaneously if you discover a problem, having transparent redundancy (even with only 1 disk) and error recovery..and snapshots for restoring previous states of the computer or files all make this very worthwhile on the desktop and in the server room.
- eleven, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7@digguserer
This is Apple were talking about - I would hope they have managed to make a format conversion utility. You never know this could be the main reason why Apple has delayed the OS. Very interesting either way I'll be converting or formatting (what a pain) to ZFS if this is true. - imcquill, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Almost certainly, the final implementation will not be with symbolic links anymore. That would be silly with ZFS around.
- ezkcdude, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8As someone who is getting an Apple XServe RAID next year, I am very, very happy :)
- almalax19, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6Its not only wigdets that have problems with case sensitivity. Adobe comes to mind.
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