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265 Comments
- cquinnd, on 10/12/2007, -10/+82I know several people who are enthusiastic about Windows. But (most) are also enthusiastic about having a life beyond the type of computer they choose to use.
- modsuperstar, on 10/12/2007, -16/+84Why Windows doesn't incite the same type of user fervor is because it is the standard. It's like rooting for the house in blackjack. Apple and the Macintosh platform are the underdogs. People tend to stump for the underdog, hoping to enlighten them on the alternatives people have. There really isn't any use getting all frothy about Windows in most cases because you're preaching to the converted already as they occupy the majority of the market.
- GutterMoo, on 10/12/2007, -5/+61Here is a simple answer: the majority of people use windows, there is nothing special about it.
This kind of stuff happens all the time. Like for example, what is your favorite obscure band? Now if you saw someone on the street with their shirt on you might stop and say something. However, a band that is really famous, example Led Zepplin, you are less likely to go up to a person wearing their shirt no matter how much you like the band.
Why? Because there is nothing special about liking something that a large collection of people do. - stevetures, on 10/12/2007, -11/+54In my experience, Mac users are more defensive / aggressive about their choice because they've thought really hard about mac/pc and have decided to swim against the current, and they are well-aware of that decision.
Frankly, I'm glad that Apple has some nerd stuff at the core of the OS, but it sure doesn't have it in the middle areas in terms of configurations. I'm sure I'll get dugg down for saying this (though its objectively true) but most Mac users aren't computer savvy enough to know what really goes on inside the computer. Please don't confuse this with Mac users who know how to open a console and edit config files. Those people I have nothing but respect.
Here's my as-objective-as-possible look at the Pros and Cons. Decide for yourself.
Pro Macs:
-aesthetically pleasing
-nice / responsive GUI
-low security problems
-beloved community help
Con Macs:
-Kind of expensive, especially if you buy each 10.* (really expensive if you dual-boot)
-not as much diversity in software (getting better with the addition of X11 / linux portability)
-Doesn't always play nice with other computers
-Can break compatibility inbetween 10.* releases due to low market share and few will get screwed. (try breaking a windows business essential app and everyone screams bloody murder)
Pro PCs / Windows
-Relatively cheap depending on need
-plenty of software, including tons of OSS / freeware, games, etc
-backwards compatible, usually you can run something from win95 if you need to... thats 11 years ago folks
-Decent interoperability (considering its a windows world out there)
-Not too hard to secure (don't run as administrator, get Symantec and IE7 or Firefox, DONE!)
-XP still runs decently on my 6 year old laptop, cant say that quite about Apple
Cons PCs / Windows
-Security security security. its not out-of-the-box secure.
-Easy to get swindled into spending lots of software.
-Not aesthetically pleasing out-of-the-box (I prefer Royale Noir... google that)
-Not very cool (sounds cheesy but its true) - yidali, on 10/12/2007, -22/+62"makes users nerds"
Um... i believe most digg readers are nerds and are proud of it...
sarcasm--
so with reverse logic, Macs make users into Paris Hilton?
--sarcasm - kevinmotel, on 10/12/2007, -11/+50t-mobile sidekicks make users into paris hilton
- betterth, on 10/12/2007, -5/+40It's not about the type, it's about the level of productivity achieved on one versus the others. I can find ten people who'll say they can do more on a Mac faster, and 10 that say they can on a PC.
It's about finding on which platform you can be most productive. - timxpx, on 10/12/2007, -8/+38why, in a culture of technology, do people need to defend their operating system? fanboyism is gross. so is OS-elitism.
people shouldn't waste their time selling a brand unless they're getting a commission. - chris9902, on 10/12/2007, -11/+38yeah, that's what I was going to say.
who gives a ***** what you use. I have more important things in my life than if my icons bounce or not. - tsunamisteve, on 10/12/2007, -10/+31I think it's a valid stereotype that artistic people tend to use Macs. It's because they are looking past functionality and understand that there is a vibe to using a Mac. I recently purchased a 2nd 20" Apple Cinema display for video editing. I could have easily gone with a Dell or other brand to save a couple hundred bucks, but it's worth it to me to have a seamless, aesthetic 40" of desktop void of clunky buttons and black plastic.
So bringing this home, I think Mac users are more enthusiastic because they bought them for a reason. It wasn't like, "oh I'm gonna go get a computer because I need to send emails." It's more like, "Wow, that's a great computer and practically a piece of art (hardware and software). I'll probably get dug down but any Mac user will know what I'm talking about. - Ehrgeiz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20"It's pretty simple, and this is not a troll or flamebait. Anybody who has really used both knows it's because Windows sucks and OS X doesn't."
How is that not flamebait? Did you not think before typing it? Your statement is PURE flamebait and nothing more. - dvdmon, on 10/12/2007, -10/+26I think you're right. But I also think it's a defense mechanism. I remember being an advocate of Atari back in the late 80's, and an advocate of OS/2 in the mid-90's. Both of these were minority shares of the market. On the one hand, you felt "special" as in good - that you were somehow on the cutting edge, or at least in a better place than the boring majority. On the other hand, because everyone around you was using something else, there was an inherent sense that you had to somehow defend your choice, because it was so odd! I think this same idea may be at issue here, consciously or not. It's probably not to the degree it was 5 years ago, or in special industries that have always been Mac-based, but I think part of the whole "cult" of Apple has been driven by this alternating lack of confidence and on the flip side it's idea that it is sacred above other alternatives. Also, Apple was in pretty dire straights before Jobs came back, and this just energized the loyal core even more, since they felt defending Apple and Macs was a matter of life or death (of the company or the platform, that is.)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+22Windows is ubiquitous. You don't go up to someone in the street and ask them "Hey, have you heard of Coca-Cola?!"
Then again, Pepsi fans aren't insane. - Blisshead, on 10/12/2007, -7/+20Agreed about the underdog bit,
I also have to add, that if you care to take even the slightest bit of initiative, you can mod a windows PC in almost any aspect, making it quite individual. Never mind the OS possibilities with *nix. - 81v3d07g0d, on 10/12/2007, -17/+28I couldn't disagree more, I was forced to use a mac in one of my graphic design classes and I hated it. IT was a nice g4 too, but to me it was different, but not because those ways were better but just because it didn't want to be windows. Not a single thing was really intuitive or more streamlined, any better than windows. I didn't find that it had all that little of problems to deal with either, it surprising that a supposedly superior machine that has almost nothing running in the background can fail to print freeze up and generally crash as much if not more than a windows machine. In fact I can say we've had a single problem in our PC lab and we run all the same programs on those machines (photoshop - illustrator)
The last thing is that macs look good, well yeah so does my windows box because I use a program like "style xp" that allows me to skin an customize every part of the visuals of my desktop, with zero hit on resources I might add. Oh yeah and I use "object dock" so I have even functionality of the dock. I can upgrade at will, do my own work on customize to my hearts content. Now explain to my why I need a mac *goes to install osx86* Yeah that's what I thought.
Its really simple, people want to be the same but different. Mac people think of themselves in exactly that way, like that ***** who only listens to vinyl records. And every time he explains how that's the only way to listen to music you, wish you could shove his precious record collection up his ass and say, "you know what, I just don't have to try that hard to be a cool person."
- geekee, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19When Win95 came out, it was clearly superior to the MacOS out at the time.
- geekee, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14You can mod me down but it doesn't change the fact that Macs had no preemptive multitasking, no memory management, and no memory protection at the time. Win95 had all of the above and a decent GUI.
- DoctaStooge, on 10/12/2007, -16/+25Oh how all ye "Macoholics" forget about the other alternatives to Windows besides a Mac (see: Unix, Linux, BSD, Solaris). In the almighty OS conversion race, how come Apple (and its fans) don't talk about these alternatives? If Apple is going to say that its OS is better than Windows, then why not compare it to all the other types of OSes, this would only seem fair. Now don't get me wrong, I like Apple, they make quality products. I myself own a 60 gb 5th gen Video iPod. But in all fairness, why not compare Mac OS to Linux, Unix, etc. if you are going to go with the argument of "it just works"? Wouldn't this give users more of an incentive to switch? I would presume so. So don't talk about Mac OS being better until you start comparing it to all other operating systems available, open or closed source otherwise.
- modsuperstar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10I don't see why DVDMon is being dugg down. He's hit the nail on the head. People tend to want to justify their choice of platform because it is outside the box. Nobody likes having their decisions second guessed and people don't like feeling like they wasted money in the eyes of others. Justifying your outside the box choice is only natural.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -11/+17it's the same reason there's not a "hey i'm a ipod, hey i'm a zune" commercial. you don't need to advertise and convert people. people know the benefits of windows already.
- jpwillms, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11I'm a windows enthusiast for sure. An OS that runs relatively reliably on a multitude of HW platforms vs an OS that is tweaded to work on one? (Windows is a much bigger accomplishment than Mac from that perspective).
Usability and design, is something OSX has over Macs. That isn't enough to make me switch. - yidali, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8@GutterMoo
Perfect summary of everything I wanted to say.
People aren't excited by what is common but rather what is new/different. - atdigg, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10Windows users don't have any interest to convert people. If they had such an interest would be to convert Windows users to Mac or Linux in order to provide more competition to Microsoft to get better support and lower prices (that if we assume that Windows users are smart)
So no interest, no "enthusiasm". - MakinBacon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8... I can buy all the parts and build a better, faster system and put Linux on it for much less than I could to buy an Apple. Seems like I'm getting more bang for my buck by not having a Mac.
Except that you leave two important facts...
1. Maybe your time and effort is worth $0.. but mine isn't. Maybe you don't care for just turning a computer on and actually using it rather than tinkering with it for hours before it is usable. I use the same logic when there are two gas stations on one corner... one is selling gas for 2 cents less and there are about 20 cars waiting in line... no thanks, I'll fill my 60litre tank for an extra $1.20 rather than waiting in line for twenty minutes. No I'm not a lawyer or a doctor but my time is still worth money.
2. Go ahead and put Linux on it... and while you're continuing to tinker for hours on end, I'll go ahead and turn on my computer, plug in my video camera via firewire, download my short film, edit it using iMovie, add music and sound using iTunes and GarageBand, and burn it to DVD or upload it to YouTube so my family can watch it. You go ahead and search for free software that'll do the same thing for your Linux box... no worries - your time is not worth anything. - cthellis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Frankly, I tend to find the people who complain about "pretentious Mac users" to be far more pretentious.
Teh ironies. - Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"I'm sure I'll get dugg down for saying this (though its objectively true) but most Mac users aren't computer savvy enough to know what really goes on inside the computer."
@ stevetures?
That's the whole point! They shouldn't have to know what's going on inside their computer to be able to use it. Most people just want to get on with the work. Like most people who drive cars don't know how to change a carburetor, cause they don't give a *****. They buy the car to drive it, not to fix it. - anymir, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11I am not enthusiastic about my operating system (Windows) because I just don't give a *****. I like using windows. I don't care if you do. Some mac users I meet are seriously like jehovah's witnesses.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7OSX does need to be defragmented if you run a hard drive up to about 95% disk space used it will start to fragment files like crazy. Less than that though it is pretty much unnecessary, but saying OSX doesn't ever need to be defragmented isn't entirely true.
- mongrel, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Because "coaxing" someone to use a Windows machine is like "coaxing" them to drink Coke. Who hasn't had a Coke? What's the point of getting excited about it? It's a staple.
Coaxing someone to a Mac however is like, "here try this Faygo Cream Soda." "Mmm, never had that, that's really good!" Of course, Cream Soda is a drink that eventually becomes neuseating after enough days of use. And you can't play any good games on it. - stevetures, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Here's the Secunia page for IE7... Im not a raving pro- or anti- M$ kid, but that's a good record so far.
http://secunia.com/product/12366/?task=statistics_2006
3 bugs, all unpatched, none of which are above a moderate security rating. Not bad.
Here's the IE6 page and FF v2.0 pages for comparison.
http://secunia.com/product/11/?task=statistics_2006
http://secunia.com/product/4227/?task=statistics_2006 - Thataboy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Actually, if I am not mistaken, OS X does not defrag files >20MB. If you use your hard drive for any sort of video, including stuff bought in iTunes, then you have a problem. I really hope Apple fixes defrag or includes a defrag utility in Leopard.
- VeganG, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5One common trait I've noticed among Mac fanatics is that they looove using their computers to do ***** like organizing their photos, editing video constantly and inexplicably, categorizing their music files in every way imaginable....
Some of us just aren't like that, and don't feel deficient in using an operating system that cheaply lets us play games and get online. Period. Every time someone tells me about all the cool "productive" things I could be doing with a Mac, my only response is, "But I don't care to do that stuff..."
I'm not trying to come off as superior or anything, I'm just saying... different strokes. Use what you need. - mww2, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Off the top of my head, things that make me enthusiastic about OS X.
1) no clutter
2) Quicksilver (http://quicksilver.blacktree.com/)
3) dashboard
4) Prefpanes
5) samba integration
6) Finder
7) flawless sleep mode
8) Software Update
9) iTunes
10) stability
11) Disk Utility
12) apache integration
13) lightning-fast startup
14) Boot Camp
15) Application installation (drag and drop)
16) Preview (can read PDFs out of the box[!])
17) Absurd number of printer and other drivers
18) near flawless PnP cabability
19) disk images
20) gorgeous font rendering
21) Applescript
22) has a JVM out of the box
23) Clear design, layout and icons (read their Human Interface Guidelines sometime)
24) Expose
25) UNOBTRUSIVE
and
26) DOES NOT DRIVE ME ***** BATTY - wildjohn999, on 10/12/2007, -10/+14Enthusiastic? Don't you mean pretentious?
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/pretentious
a : making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing)
b : expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature - danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8You are correct it is not entirely true, but it is true for the 99% of the people who use it. And yes Task Manager pales in comparison to Activity Monitor.
- Tiak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Windows has fans now?....
The only reason "Windows fans" aren't enthused is, well, they don't really exist, in fact, I actually wind Windows rather impressive in its lack of Zealotry, I mean think about it, just about every religion, idealogy, belief system, and operating system out there has some sort of mindless zealots, and while the majority of the people I know use windows, I've yet to meet one. Maybe this is genius in disguise? - profOblivion, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Not too many by my first glance. I'm pleasantly surprised.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9"Why are Mac fans so enthusiastic, while Windows fans aren't?"
Cocaine and sodomy. - TheUngod, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6*ding dong* Hi, I'd like to talk to you for a moment about our lord and savior...Steve Jobs
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -19/+23"defrag capabilities and the task manager"
OSX Doesn't need to be defragged
OSX has the activity viewer, which is much better at quitting tasks because it doesn't make you first find the applications process. On windows you have a list of apps but the end task feature rarely gets rid of that app, you instead have to right click then go to process then quit that.
Also Activity Viewer has a search box to filter the list of processes - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Actually I'd argue the majority of Mac users are dirt poor; College Students make up one of the largest percentages of Apple purchasers outside of the professional community. There's simple reasoning behind this: if you're going to pay a ton of money for a computer anyways, you'd better at least get one that's going to last the test of time and not be a constant worry if it's going to be working that day or not.
Or at least that's been my experience with them. YMMV. - michaelwright, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Or, those of us college students without rich parents pay for them on our own—from money we've saved by working. After paying for school.
Just got an iMac 17" through credit. Paid it off in four months. Never looked back. - monkeybutler, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Here's the simplest explanation for how each side views their OS (which of course will get dug down for being too accurate)
Windows = Its a TOOL similar to a hammer or vacuum.
Mac = Its a LIFESTYLE similar to raver or bad musician.
The most vocal mac user is like those odd party-posers who change into their weekend-clothes in the work bathroom at the end of their shift so they can make sure everyone around them sees how "cool" they are and hopefully asks them what they're doing this weekend. Some people find them to be exciting but most find them to be a bit too desperate for attention. - MacParrot, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7naio,
That's a rather biased view of what happened. When the MS/Apple deal occured, several things were swept away all at once benefitting both companies. Several lawsuits were settled. Getting lawyers out of the picture is always a good thing. Yes, MS did buy 150 million US dollars worth of non-voting Apple stock, but Apple still had billions in cash reserves and almost zero debt. MS ended up selling the stock for a tidy profit later, but the money that Apple received was really unimportant.
Here's what made the deal important for MS:
Settled lawsuits reasonable cheaply
The perception (and reality) that MS won the OS wars
Here's what made the deal important for Apple
Settled lawsuits that were more a distraction than anything else. MS had signed documents from Apple's early days that agreed to some intellectual property transfers. While it's questionable whether or not Apple gave away the rights to make a competing GUI (really such a basic idea shouldn't be patented anyway) to MS because of this earlier agreement, it was enough to ensure that it would never be settled in the court of law to anyone's satisfaction. So in one big step, they were gone and Apple got some folding money. Everyone's happy.
More importantly, MS agreed to update MS Office for the Mac for at least 5 years. This alone gave Apple time to retool and catch their breath from all the incredibly stupid mistakes they made in the late 80s/early 90s. THIS is what Apple really needed from MS and they got it.
There were other points that were settled as well, but that's the crux of it as far as I know. Someone else with more information is welcome to add it in. - alwaysmc2, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7@ geminitojanus
I would argue that the college student's rich parents pay for their Apple computers.
PC's last long enough. It's just that there is so much competition (and therefore innovation) in the PC market that newer and better ones come out so quickly. - msgyrd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5"XP still runs decently on my 6 year old laptop, cant say that quite about Apple"
Uh...are you stupid? XP was released in 2001. Why didn't you just say "My 5.5 year old operating systems still runs decently on my 6 year old laptop"....no *****, really?
OSX Tiger still runs on G3 laptops (800mhz range). Thats significantly better legacy hardware performance than Windows XP does, and I'm sure that when Leopard is released (if it's available for PPC, I've not heard), it will perform on hardware much older than what Vista will support. - danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5While they are more aesthetically pleasing then any competitors products for me the reason why I choose Apple is for 1) the O.S. 2) the simple yet functional hardware. I bought my first iBook specifically because it was not toting around dead technology that so many PC's have (Floppy, Parallel Port, Serial Port, PS/2 etc). I don't want to carry around something that I will never ever use! One of my favorite things about Apple is there willingness to remove obsolescence, and focus more on making a good user experience.
- matthistory, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I love this argument, its always the same. In reality, in the large scheme of things, not just people that read digg (which while theres a lot of us, I can tell you if I asked my parents what they thought of the latest Digg article they wouldn't have a freaking clue what I'm talking about). People who buy Mac's for the most part and this goes for some windows users and definitely Unix people, are making an active choice in what they are purchasing. Buying a Windows driven PC is like drinking water, its readily available, its all over the freaking place and most likely, its what you were using before you decided to get something new. So most Windows users are that by default, now there are plenty of people who aren't and choose to use Windows, but I'm talking majorities here, and I would be willing to make the bet that the majority of Mac users made an active choice to buy a Mac. Not to mention niche marketing and all the other crap that goes into it.
- nagone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4tyho:
for the nerds that use OS X its not necessarily for the looks. For me its because it integrates into the world of *nix with out all the hassle. Since I am a computer science student, this is a plus. -
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