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101 Comments
- Enitime, on 10/12/2007, -3/+29"Why do they flip out over Apple's DRM and not other companies like Napster, Sony and the like that use MS's Janus DRM?"
Vendor lock-in.
If a company wants to create a product that plays Microsoft DRM content, they can.
If a company wants to create a product that plays Apple DRM content, they can't.
A consumer with a hundred paid-for iTunes songs whose iPod breaks has to buy a new iPod to be able to play them, he can't buy another brand mp3 player without losing the music (or being forced convert them by circumventing the DRM, which in many places would mean breaking the law). - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+28Because they have the largest share of the MP3 player and song market. The same reason people attack Windows as an OS or IE as a browser (note, the later two are less well designed for the user, but the point remains)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26DRM is defective by design
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+26@Hackintosh:
> If you don't like it, then don't use the service; nobody is forcing you to accept DRMed media.
Except when Apple do one of their exclusive "only available on iTunes" things. Let's look at my options there:
1 - Pay money and subscribe to Apple's DRM, also being forced to buy some of their metrosexual hardware if I wish to listen to it on the move
2 - Don't buy it
Great. Besides, I bet if the major DRM standard was Microsoft's, all of you "DRM isn't so bad" Mac users would be just as up in arms about it as the rest of us. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19http://www.defectivebydesign.org/
- PurpleMeteor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15You are misinformed. Data has nothing to do with programs. No one prevents you from creating your own Xbox compatible hardware to play your games. On the other hand, Apple do prevents you from doing whatever you want with the songs you bought. The iTunes Store is the biggest scam I've ever seen but no one seems to care because "we all love Apple", that's pathetic.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14From http://www.defectivebydesign.org/ :
"A San Francisco freedom fighter suprised us with a nice 2002 Macworld quote from Steve Jobs "If you legally acquire music, you need to have the right to manage it on all other devices that you own." I think the Europeans are holding him to that this week!" - Cymrubeats, on 10/12/2007, -17/+28@Hackintosh - Just like no one is forcing me not to buy casette or vinyl..hold on, for the most part i don't even have those as an option. Well done mate, the more people that accept it the less likely there will be an alternative. 10/10 for being a short sighted *****.
- geekee, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12"Why do they flip out over Apple's DRM and not other companies like Napster, Sony and the like that use MS's Janus DRM?"
Anyone can license MS's DRM. No anti-trust issues. No monopoly anyway.
It's not Apple or MS making the call, it's the recording labels that are forcing it down consumers throats. If anything, Apple successfully kept the music at a .99¢ price point when labels threatened to pull out if they didn't charge more."
Standard Oil made oil cheaper for everyone too. Didn't stop them from being prosecuted. - skoles, on 10/12/2007, -14/+23Why do they flip out over Apple's DRM and not other companies like Napster, Sony and the like that use MS's Janus DRM?
It's not Apple or MS making the call, it's the recording labels that are forcing it down consumers throats. If anything, Apple successfully kept the music at a .99¢ price point when labels threatened to pull out if they didn't charge more. - tehgooch, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14Music isn't a right you *****. If you don't want to deal with the DRM, then pirate it or don't buy it. Make apple hurt if they don't do what you want or you won't get what you want. Jesus christ.
- UnnDunn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6To me, DRM is acceptable if it enables useful new ways to consume digital content while maintaining a fully transparent and open presence on my system, allowing me to time/space/format shift content I have legally acquired, and respects my right to know and control exactly what goes on in my system and in the peripherals that connect to it. Further, the DRM system would have to be accessible to the "little guys" as well as the "big guys."
Things like digital-download movie rental services and subscription music services are great, IMHO, because they let me consume digital media the way I want to. Services like those would be impossible without DRM.
At the end of the day, DRM is just a technology. Technology is never the enemy. Abuse of technology is. - actorboy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9@ PurpleMeteor
"The iTunes Store is the biggest scam I've ever seen but no one seems to care because "we all love Apple", that's pathetic."
If by scam you mean selling products you want in a way you don't want them, then yes, it's a scam. If, however, you mean scam in terms of the word's actual definition, then no, it's not. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"Why do they flip out over Apple's DRM and not other companies like Napster, Sony and the like that use MS's Janus DRM?"
They're protesting all DRM, Apple happens to be the most popular. Also the media reports attacks on DRM as though they target only Apple. Take the French attempt, it would have applied to Microsoft as well but it was reported as though it was solely at Apple.
"It's not Apple or MS making the call, it's the recording labels that are forcing it down consumers throats."
Apple has said that they wouldn't remove DRM even if they where allowed to by the record industry. The DRM benefits Apple. So Apple is every bit as responsible for pushing the DRM as the record companies.
" If anything, Apple successfully kept the music at a .99¢ price point when labels threatened to pull out if they didn't charge more."
I am sure the threatened investigation by New York AG Eliot Spitzer had something to do with that as well. - meltingrobot, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9@Bigfat
"Of course we would, because PlayForSure isn't available for Macs."
Yeah well they aren't making iTunes for Linux either. - PathDaemon, on 10/12/2007, -9/+15Because there are Apple stores and not Napster or Rhapsody stores.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8That's the problem with people on all issues. They're apathetic and don't care.
So do us a favor, instead of voicing your apathy, why not go back to your RIAA/MPAA, DRM, Britney Spears, Walmart, environmental polluting, discriminatory world that gets ignored heavily, and world where workers rights are trampled..
kick back, relax. Eat your 30 dollar steak in front of your big screen.. drive your SUV to your comfy little job. Spend all your money on useless crap that controls you rather tha nyou controlling it, watch all your freedoms slip away due to either governments, or corporations, have a problem in your life? take a pill or two. Ask your doctor about it.
and one last thing. please stop speaking. "Baaaah!" should be the total amount of your vocab at this point. - pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10Care to name an acceptable use of DRM? The whole point is to exert unwarranted control over people's actions. You're so caught up in the idea that publishers have "digital rights" that need to be protected that you've completely forgotten about the people being digitally managed. That's us. Please explain to me why record companies should get more say than I do about how I use content that I have paid for. There's a lot more of us than there are of them, and technology needs to be designed to work for *us*, the majority, not for a secret record cabal.
- Monkeman, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9isn't this something that the market can decide for itself? people who don't mind DRM buy drm music. people who do mind it don't buy it. if the latter outnumbers the former, drm goes away. if not, the anti-drm people find their own market. what's the problem?
- gotamd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5So Apple is saying that interoperability and consumers' right to fair use is "state sponsored piracy". Sounds an awful lot like the RIAA to me. I don't pirate music, but I still hate DRM'd junk and don't buy it. They need to get a clue.
- aspro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Just like how I can play WM-DRM on my Mac. Oh, wait. I can't. So, DRM is okay now if you can license it?"
I guess the point there is that if apple wanted to, they could license PlaysForSure and make it compatible if they wanted. But I can't see what the fuss is about, if people don't like the restrictions they shouldn't buy it. I for one buy most of my music through eMusic, but when I buy off iTunes I accept that I am limited in my uses. - einfeldt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5hi Monkeman,
the problem with DRM is its potential for becoming a standard and resulting in perfect control by governments and corporations of civil affairs. Please read Larry Lessig's book "The Future of Ideas." The danger of DRM is that it makes perfect control attainable, thereby threatening dissent. Dissent and civil disobedience are key rights in a democracy. DRM presents the potential for eliminating dissent. Just look at what China is doing to the Internet. Look at what the NSA is doing with spying. It's scary. And DRM will augment this power. - geekee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Where were you when Microsoft was being sued?
- loftx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@tehgooch: actually it is: music, film and writing is part of our culture and this is recognised in copyright law. If you create something you don't own it - you're given a limited monopoly to use the work you create *under certain conditions* for a *limited time period*.
And there's the whole problem with DRM: it restricts fair use - breaking the consumers' right under copyright law (yes copyright law doesn't just protect content creators) and does not allow free use of the work once they copyrights expire. - diggn_it, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8I dont understand all the anger people have against DRM. Sure it's annoying, but then just buy CD's. Apple is offering a convenient way for people to buy music, and for that to work they need the DRM. If you dont like it, check out emusic and stop bitching. I'm sick of people acting like apple is the root of all evil because they are complying with the recording companies requests. If they did not, there would be no itunes plain and simple. No one is forcing you to buy from the store, and the claim that apple has a monopoly is ridiculous when anyone can go to napster, rhapsody, walmart.com, urge, or the hmv down the street to get their music as well.
- geekee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"If toshiba wants to make a player that plays blu-ray, they have to pay sony a licensing fee, or whatever they work out. The same should be true for music downloaded from the iTMS."
But Apple doesn't license fairplay, so it isn't true for iTMS. Creative wants to license and support fairplay. They can't. - hoyaman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4What I agree with, that is, a point made by defective by design that I feel strongly about as well, is the issue of iTunes' file only being playable on apple-made devices.
Therefore, I can't play music I download from iTunes on my Treo 650. To play the songs, I'd have to drop another hundred or more bucks on an iPod, and lug both damn devices around with me.
Why the hell would I want that? I bought a smart phone because I want one device, and I'll accept a trade-off to avoid the clutter and hassle of more devices. Like a bunch of mac-oriented folks, I also feel that apple has missed a great oportunity to cpaitilize on Palm's non-Windows status to place an iTunes program on later-model Palmone devices, competing with RealPlayer and other players...I know I'd actually buy iTunes songs then, since I use it to organize my music, and actually like the sound quality of aac files.
Till then, I'm saving my money and listening to my old collection. - harlowsmonkeys, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8thisisgil: you don't have to buy Apple hardware to listen to iTunes music on portable devices. You can follow the documented procedure given by Apple to remove the DRM. This involves burning to CD, giving you a copy that is 100% DRM-free. You can then treat it just like you would a CD that you bought in the store. Rip that in whatever format you need for whatever portable you are using.
So, the person you are replying to is right: no one forces you to use Apple's DRM. Even the iTunes exclusives will work elsewhere. - einfeldt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Let's hope they stick to this strategy.
- geekee, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5"How is this different than an xbox game being only playable on an xbox or a PC game only being playable on compatible PC systems?"
Anyone can develop a game for xbox. Only Apple can sell you a DRMed song for iPod. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6An Xbox game is clearly labelled as being for the Xbox only. ITunes songs are (correctly or incorrectly) downloaded under the pretense of being usable to the same extent as traditional media. Yes, perhaps people should read the terms more carefully, but this is a basic issue of copyright.
There is no copyright law that says iTunes (or any other DRM pusher) are allowed to restrict a users rights once they have acquired the works legally to the extent they do - and it goes against the original principal of the law - that being incentives for creators and not vulture capitalists. DRM is only allowed because of anticircumvention, and that was a law invented within the last decade only as a result of corporate lobbying.
This is about FAIR USE... nothing more complicated. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I love Defective by Design, much like how i have much respect for the Green and Libertarian parties in the US, the Pirate Party in Sweden, and quite a many groups that may or may not be political parties. There's lots of great advocate groups out there fighting for noble causes.. for smaller government, tech rights, privacy rights, IP law, workers rights, environmental rights, you name it.
But most of all of these groups suffer a similar fault and that's one of presentation. Very rarely do they show us that they're professional, they're websites look like crap, they're protests are childish, their statements to the public.. while i might agree with, can get a bit ridiculous at times. Groups like these people who can do something about it.. simply will never take seriously. I'm suprised Defective by Design has done what it has. But frankly if Richard Stallman wants to be taken seriously his needs to quit being a sappy bitch, cut his hair, trim his facial hair and learn how to dress and address professionals, government leaders, and the public.
None of these groups that i adore so very much stands a chance in hell, until they can present themselves in a manner the rest of the world will take serious. Generation after generation, people simply don't seem to grasp this concept... and it's a trivial fact of life that makes a huge ***** difference that none of us are going to change. And until people wake up and quit prancing around in obnoxious outfits outside of corporate and government offices, they will be written off as nutbags, hippies, drug addicts, radicals, etc..
Apple calling the french government possibly endorsing "state sponsored piracy" will be much more effective than a couple of computer nerds bouncing around in GNU t-shirts.
Grow up and learn how to fight the system, dumbasses. - MechaFenris, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Simple. Use eMusic, Rhapsody, Napster, Wal Mart, etc. etc. Apple iTunes is not the only game in town.
If you want to use iTunes, but don't care for an iPod, simply burn your tracks to CD, then re-rip them DRM-free. Try that with some of the "other" stores. Oh yeah, I forgot, they tell you which tracks you can even burn to a CD.
I personally hate DRM as much as the next guy, but I am realistic about its existence. The simple fact is, Apple's balancing it better than everyone except eMusic (but looky looky, where are the majors on eMusic... oh that's right, THERE AREN'T ANY.) Not that it matters much to me, but some people seem to think the majors actually put out good music.
Until you attack the SOURCE of the DRM (the *AA's), you will never defeat DRM.
Attacking Apple/Microsoft/Napster, etc is merely treating a symptom.
These people are crippling CD's for crying out loud. How is it that Apple's Fairplay (that is only available in iTunes) is somehow worse because it's only available via iTunes?
And since "playsforsure" and Janus is only available on Windows, I consider that more of a monopoly than iTunes.
I'm sure I'll be labeled as an Apple "apologist" or "fanboi"... but eh... the truth still stands. - peedub, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4quoting the article
"The "Defective by Design" protests are not aimed at Apple in particular, but at what the Free Software Foundation sees as a growing trend toward legal restrictions that bind digital content to particular playing devices."
they're not just targetting apple, i guess they're just the biggest and most convenient. - Factionrider, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Apple should start cutting deals directly with the artists, the artists could completely cut the RIAA out of the picture and make a lot more money, while apple will have a hell of a lot less hassle and could even open the songs up more for the end user. DRM is a good thing provided it's done right. Authorizing computers is fine with me but if I download a song from iTunes I want to be able to put it on any device I have, or burn as many copys via iTunes as I want.
- youareretarded, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/drm/faq.aspx#TOC_drmfaq_businessrules
4.5 Which operating systems support Windows Media DRM?
The Windows Media DRM run-time client is supported on several operating systems. Depending on the operating system, either version 1 is supported or version 7 and later are supported. The difference between the two is that version 1 licenses offer more reach (for example, the Microsoft Windows 95 operating system) but fewer capabilities (for example, licensing models are more restrictive) and limited security functionalities. Version 7 and later licenses offer greater flexibility and security enhancements, but are available only to newer operating systems.
Regardless of which licenses the run-time client can use, Windows Media Rights Manager 10.1 can issue licenses in all of these formats (version 1, version 7.x, version 9, and version 10.x) to all run-time clients on these operating systems.
Operating System Windows Media Player supported Windows Media DRM license supported
Windows 95
Windows Media Player 6.4
Version 1 license
Windows NT Server 4.0
Windows Media Player 6.4
Version 1 license
Windows 98 SE
Windows Media Player 7.1
Windows Media Player 9 Series
Version 1 and version 7.x and later licenses
Windows 2000
Windows Media Player 7.1
Windows Media Player 9 Series
Version 1 and version 7.x and later licenses
Windows Millennium Edition
Windows Media Player 7.1
Windows Media Player 9 Series
Version 1 and version 7.x and later licenses
Windows XP
Windows Media Player 7.1
Windows Media Player 9 Series
Windows Media Player 10
Version 1 and version 7.x and later licenses
Mac OS 8.5
Windows Media Player 7.01 for Mac
Version 1 and version 7.x and later licenses - IchiroBoston, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3If there are still CD's for sale at a store no GOVERNMENT should prohibit any company from selling DRM'ed music. As long as there are choices, let the market play it out. No one makes me buy songs from iTunes and even if I did buy something from iTunes, I can just burn it to an AudioCD and re-import it with NO DRM! So what is the big deal. Does everyone really think Apple would get contracts from the record industry without any DRM? As for Apple not licensing FairPlay, so what? They are a business. If you dont like their ways, go buy a CD from a store! You still have a choice, don't let ANY government make that choice for you!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Screw that.
I'll never purchase something MPAA, RIAA (or international counterparts), licensed, and i'll never buy anything laden with DRM. - SmeRndmGy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3DRM IS the enemy. It is unnecessary and creates an incentive for illegal behavior. Follow the rules and buy the music file, and you get a file crippled with DRM, preventing you from making a certain number of copies, preventing your friend from listening to it on his computer, preventing you from listening to it on certain mp3 players. Steal the same file from p2p and you can do whatever you want with it, no questions asked, no hassle. These companies need to accept the fact that their content WILL be made available online for free. Then they need to stop treating the people who choose to pay for their files like criminals. They need to add incentives to buy the music legally, not incentives to get it from other, less legal sources.
- SonofMaug, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"Therefore, I can't play music I download from iTunes on my Treo 650. To play the songs, I'd have to drop another hundred or more bucks on an iPod, and lug both damn devices around with me."
Which is exactly what Apple wants. Don't forget people, Apple is primarily a HARDWARE manufacturer. They also happen to make the best software to work with their own hardware. Apple is at a barely break-even point with the ITMS, they make their money selling iPods, not music. If you could download songs onto your treo 650 or whatever and not have to buy an iPod, then Apple would lose their asses on the music side. My question is, why hasn't anybody else been able to do the same thing? Apple wasn't first with the MP3 player, but they've done it the best as I see it.
Yes I do own an iPod, yes I have bought some music on the store, but I'm listening to more podcasts than anything else now. I love having my 6,000 plus songs, plus podcasts, plus videos, plus calendars, plus phone number database, plus photos, etc all on one little device. - danr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3^ Yet other sites like www.emusic.com let people purchase music in standard mp3 format with no DRM. Also, charging $10 for an album isn't quite a deal when you consider you don't get a physical backup, no album notes, no art, lesser quality digital audio, you can't sell it used to someone else if you get tired of it, etc.
- MechaFenris, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1shmatt: it's called Jingoism or Nationalism.
It's not Patriotism. Stop misusing the word before it becomes poisoned by idiots. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"But no more criminal then what these corporations do to me and you."
So, selling is stealing and vice-versa? That's a new one. - IchiroBoston, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I agree, I think eventually this will happen but for now most artists have contracts with some record company and record contracts are mostly long term loans, the record company will front you money for your work. I think in 5-10 years things would be much different when everyones contracts start to expire.
- scristian, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Today France and Sweden, tomorrow all Europe. Good strategy Apple.
- pingveno, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I think (s)he meant that, for most people, DRM is completely acceptable and does no harm. Respecting copyright laws isn't apathy. It's not ignoring workers' rights. It's not ignoring the environmental consequences of motor vehicles. It's not ignoring the problems with excessive consumption. It's not ignoring torture by the CIA. Sure, DRM is sometimes a little annoying (especially when Linux compatibility is involved), but it isn't a real violation of civil liberties.
- actorboy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Oopsy
- mark_b, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2when you get a non-apple mp3 player you get to use a whole host of online music stores. this system may or may not provide you with the 'best' experience/solution possible.
Apple sells you the whole system in its iPod/iTunes integration. A similar company that does this in the UK would be SKY. They sell you the satellite tv equipment and then charge you to recieve the content, again selling you the complete solution, not just a single part of the system.
Those that dont like it go else where, but it appears that the majority prefer the Sky TV/Apple method of buying into the complete system as they are both market leaders. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"Because device manufactures can license others drm technology and you cant do that with apple."
Just like how I can play WM-DRM on my Mac. Oh, wait. I can't. So, DRM is okay now if you can license it? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1you wait until it permeates to areas far beyond music and movies and our mindless entertainment.
IP law has the ability to enslave us. I mind sound like a conspiracy nut, but seriously stop and think about this business model, the precedent it sets, etc..and start applying it to a plethora of other industries. Especially in terms of books and the press in general.
If this proves to be a sucessful businss model, and is applied across the board in a multitude of other industries, think about it for medicine, autmotive technology, various sciences, people just don't understand how big this issue really is.
And yes DRM will eventually effect larger social issues, like anti-trust laws.. which in turn effect consumer rights far beyond the petty crap of today.
Stop and think of waht something like the TCPA "could" do. It could wipe out the free software movement in a matter of 5 years, easy, if applied correctly with the right marketing techniques. -
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