What is Digg?78 Comments
- i440, on 10/12/2007, -4/+61I'm sure Linux users are so disappointed that they can't use [...buffering...] RealPlayer on BBC anymore...
- zweben, on 10/12/2007, -1/+46I'm on a Mac and I prefer WMA to Real because it works better on my computer. Flip4Mac beats the hell out of Real Player.
- CoachZed, on 10/12/2007, -1/+36This is the first time I've ever seen ditching RealPlayer being treated as a bad thing.
- TomFrost, on 10/12/2007, -2/+22Actually, WMA3 is the only thing Linux and Mac *can't* do yet -- Flip4mac, MPlayer and VLC included. 1 and 2 still work fine -- but the issue here is that it's still a microsoft proprietary format. If you're a media syndicate, the *stupidest* thing you can do is move to a format that alienates any of your possible listeners. What's wrong with ogg, or the freely available and highly compressed Quicktime formats?
- Ennoch, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18The reason it's bad is that as a publicly funded UK body, the BBC is legally obliged to make it's content available to everybody in that country. It's not a platform thing.
- drbroccoli, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13Mplayer combined with mplayerplug-in should work fine. I am yet to find a format it won't work on.
- crunk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Those talking about using flip4mac: AFAIKT Flip4Mac supports WMA, but not protected WMAs so, you'll be out of luck.
- Mejogid, on 10/12/2007, -12/+24Not really... first, Real is still available at least for the time being: http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/homepage/int/ne/sw/bbandnews/t/-/news/1/hi/help/3662494.stm
And secondly, I really fail to see why this is bad for Linux/Mac users. Let's face it, 85% of BBC users use Windows, and Real Player on Windows is a dump right now. Furthermore, I at least prefer Flip4Mac & win32codecs to another media player on either platform. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16And when your using your good ol' 56k, does it love those 192kbps radio stations? Yeah i doubted it too....
The bbc caters for the masses, that means the most accessable news at hte most accessable level. - polyp2000, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14What concerns me about this; is not the fact that they are shutting out systems unable to play WMA. But the fact that the BBC is supposed to be a public service. Every person that owns a device capable of receiving broadcasts in the UK must pay a license fee. It is this which goes to funding the BBC. The BBC should be severely reprimanded for this. Their content should be accessible to everyone in the country who's paid their license fee. This is scandalous as far as i am concerned and i am amazed that this has been allowed to happen. I would suggest people use this form
( http://www.bbc.co.uk/feedback/ ) to campaign against this. Particularly UK residents - this is bang out of order for the BBC. - Charlotte_Web, on 10/12/2007, -9/+17This is also a slap in the face to Amiga and Atari 800 users.
- pbeesley1989, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10What's more important is that a huge corporation only streams its radio stations at 48kbps. Seriously, that's terrible quality by today's standards. Smaller stations have been streaming at 64 or 96kbps for some time now and the standard will soon approach 128kbps. Some net-radio stations are now doing 192kbps streams (look in iTunes for examples of these), now that's pretty much my lower limit for what I call "good quality" mp3 files, and it's certainly a *lot* nicer to listen to over speakers than a measly 48kbps. Come on BBC, let's have some real radio!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9mplayer ftw.
It plays it all (given you compile it correctly), and from where i am it looks like the mac users have a fix too. So.... maybe the bbc didn't check this before the switch, but come on people, we are linux users, we WILL find a way. - mistshadow2k4, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7If I understand correctly, BBC is funded by government taxes -- taxes which Mac & Linux-users pay as well, not just Windows-users. That's what the big deal is to *nix-users in the UK. That's if this is accurate.
- Meemoo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Except the BBC Radio stations are all offered in Real Player with a spyware free version available for Macs, Linux and Windows from their site (use the BBC search engine)
They use cross platform Real (as well as WMV) for TV on BBC Two (or flash with works with Linux and Macs)
And the iPlayer whilst likely to be WMV in the first release (like IMP), I'm told (after asking) will be Linux and Mac friendly later on in the release schedule.
Basically this article is wrong. - vinbob, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I wouldn't say they're snubbing Linux users as the latest version of ffmpeg now decodes WMA .
As the BBC is a heavy user of Linux I'm sure that this announcement coming out in the same week as ffmpeg's announcement of full WMA support isn't such a coincidence.
It's a shame for Realplayer as the Linux version is a good lightweight player, I think the main issue is that the bloated Windows version of Realplayer generally sucks. - DontSayFanboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4FOX is not a public broadcasting corporation. They exlcude users at their own expense. The BBC takes public money and should be accessible to all.
- bieber, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Regardless of what platform you use, you still have to use proprietary software to view WMA or Real streams (Real is supposed to be involved in some kind of deal to release a free WMA codec, but that hasn't happened yet), and you shouldn't have to use non-free software to view government-funded content.
- thehum, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4 even msnbc uses an flv player with a WMP skin but still. microsoft's very own nbc is friendly with mac and linux users. Silly BBC
- maxplanar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The BBC has a long tradition of R&D - the early BBC microcomputer was an example - and since 2001, they have been developing their own open-source codec known as Dirac. Most interesting of all is that this surely means the Beeb's not expecting Dirac to be ready soon.
You can read about - and download - Dirac here:
http://dirac.sourceforge.net/index.html - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I've just sent this to my member of parliament. I advise other UK readers to do the same.
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I'm very concerned to read reports that in an effort to redesign the BBC website streaming media content the corporation is switching to Microsoft's Windows Media Player (WMA / WMV) platform.
While there can be no doubt the BBC site does desperately need a facelift and better support for mobile devices, switching to a format which is only supported by the Windows operating system and devices which are licensed to use Microsoft's DRM, such as the up-coming 'Zune', is not an appropriate way forward and I feel extremely dissatisfied that my license fee is to go towards a program which forces people who do not wish to have software by Microsoft on their computer or handheld device into a system which make this a prerequisite, simply to access content they have a right to openly access.
There are easier to implement, cheeper to run, more reliable systems from the open source movement and others, which manage streaming media content on the scale the BBC requires, which protect copyright without closing off that content to a particular sector of the BBC audience.
While Microsoft / Sonos may well have compelling products which can be tailored to the corporation's demanding needs it sends a very un-British message to the rest of the world that for all it's talk of independence and impartiality the BBC, in an effort to take two steps forward, then takes three steps backwards in terms of open access, reliability and software security.
Microsoft's Digital Rights Management program closes content off from Apple Mac OS X users, iPod users and Linux variant operating systems in a way which can only be described, at best, as anti-competitive and at worst irresponsible and greedy. The disgraceful mess which Windows Media Player has made of sites such as CNN, ABC News and a plethora of other major broadcast news outlets, who also have a high web presence, is testament to Microsoft's inability to play well with others.
If that is the sort of BBC on-line service we are heading towards I think the BBC can deservedly expect a lot more complaints on this matter from people like myself both in the UK and around the world.
The existing version of BBC on-line is already very badly formed for people who do not wish to use Internet Explorer or the Windows operating system - so I dread to think what embedding even more Windows only components into a revamped version of the site will do to the millions of license fee paying people out there who prefer to use web browsers and operating systems which have been designed to comply with open, more reliable and more secure standards which are far and away superior to anything Microsoft have so far proven they are capable of respecting, let alone observing.
Then there's the question of people in developing countries, who rely on open source software to access news. When these people are prevented from listening to and viewing BBC content, because the most powerful corporations in the world force them to use Windows in order to do so, who will they turn to for reliable impartial information?
I think the BBC needs to be reminded of something we who fund it are constantly made aware of. They are in a unique position in the world in terms of reputation, honesty and vision for future content delivery systems and can not afford to dally with technology which runs against those principals.
The BBC can not and should not allow this program to go ahead as a done deal simply because Microsoft and other proprietary software vendors have so much to financially gain from forcing inflexible rights management systems onto the helpless end user. That the BBC, above all institutions we are rightly so proud to call British, should cozy up with big business at such a high cost to their customers, is utterly indefensible.
Please, on my behalf, ask searching questions of the relevant departments in government about the awarding of the contract to revamp the BBC website to a company who stand to gain so much from ignoring good standards and practices in software design such as those which Microsoft willfully and consistently ignore. - mikewhite314, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6@TomFrost:
What's wrong with ogg is that almost no one who visits the BBC site would be set up to play it. mp3 would be better. - Lounger540, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Flip4Mac is great indeed but RealPlayer for OS X isn't that bad either, way less bloated than the Windows package.
Flip4Mac does have problems when using the WMV9 advanded, or WMA voice codecs, or when being sent through a Helix server and some other setups, so it's not quite perfect yet. - KingWrecked, on 10/12/2007, -0/+37of7
"Even if it were the case that this prevented Linux users from using the website, that's the Linux users' fault, not the BBC's."
Why? What have Linux and MAC users done to force the BBC to use WMA?
The BBC is funded by a public licence fee that is compulsory for anyone who owns a TV. If you have to pay the fee it seems reasonable that they should supply you with formats you can decode.
"Besides, since when has WMV not worked on Linux? Mplayer seems to do fine."
Since WMV came encrypted. I can play anything up to mediaplayer 8 using mplayer but encrypted WMV 9 and above fails. - Snuffkin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Gah. Before this, the BBC tended to offer BOTH Windows Media and Real formats. They're not switching from Real, according to this they're deciding to drop it as one of the two options they provided.
And yes, they have an (moral, if not legal) obligation not to lock out license fee payers from the content they make available. This means Mac and Linux users as well as Windows. - badtz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'm so surprised that these major players keep going for WMA when it's not even 100% cross-platform compatible. Why not stream using a standard? like mpeg-4, h.264, etc.
such crap when everything is tied back to the microsoft mothership. - zcat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The headline of that article is VERY misleading. "protection" has special meaning with regards to WMA and as far as I can tell, there's no hint that the Beeb will be using "protected WMA" any time soon..
Ordinary wma plays just fine on mac and linux, except for the purists who refuse to run non-free code. Would mp3 be a better choice? most linux distro's won't play that without installing codecs either...
A long time ago the BBC was looking at ogg/vorbis. I wish they'd followed through but I can understand why it never went anywhere... I went through three different codec packs before I found one (gordian knot) that let WMP play ogg/vorbis. And it still crashes immediately if I try to play ogg/theoria video clips.
Does anyone know a good solution to this? I know VLC will play almost any format but there's a lot of features in windows that still insist on trying to play media files in WMP even after you've changed all the file associations. - dccrowley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm no fan of Real. Windows Media player works quite well on the mac and with a bit of messing about mplayer can tackle it. What amazes me is that windows video format is open source white the audio format is not!! That is a real pity. Don't believe me > wikipedia - windows media video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Media_Video)| Wikipedia - windows media audio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Media_Audio)
- klept, on 10/12/2007, -0/+115 minutes ago, I just listened to the bbc on linux.
- pu-z, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1No you don't understand correctly. BBC is funded by licensing of the viewers. If you want to own a TV set, you have to pay a fee to the BBC. BBC also get some funding from the Crown, but only BBC News is fully (Along with ads) financed from the Crown. And they belong to the foreign ministry.
On a *****-up sidenote, Germany are going to heavily tax all computers and cellphones that are capable of recieveing TV signals (DMB / DVB-H/T)in the same way. - rabidjester, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Am I the only person who actually likes the OS X version of real player? I haven't touched the PC version in years but the OS X one seems pretty lightweight and slick.
- ironbear, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Silly twits. And I'm not talkin' the Laporte sort. I used the Beeb's Ogg test streams until they were discontinued, and they were highly listenable. Unless they have some sort of exclusivity deal with MS (which would seem most ill-advised), I can't imagine a reason in the world why they shouldn't run an alternate stream or two for the rest of us. Sheesh.
- Spiffness, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'd rather not watch it because its WMA on my mac, but watch it on my PC, than not watch it on either because its in Real Player. Thats just not ever getting installed on any computer of mine in any form.
- PaGaNism, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As far as I can see the BBC has not ditched RealPlayer. In fact the its only the UK that has the choice to use WMA to listen to BBC radio stations. The key word there is choice; in the UK you can now choose to use RealPlayer or WMA. This, as far as I can tell, Is a non-story.
- tbye, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3They should use that stuff that Fox/MySpace uses. http://myspace.com/fox
- Ninjamonk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2ah no, I would rather the bbc spent thier cash on programming or cool new digital features than bandwidth bills.
however if they host thier own stuff then I totally agree with you :p - HMTKSteve, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1BBC is not the only ones doing this.
FOX requires a special download that Linux users can not use. At least ABC and CBS offer their content online via Flash and RealPlayer.
http://www.digg.com/software/Linux_Flash_Player_9_and_the_Big_Four_Networks
The above Digg story talks about the lack of access for Linux users in regards to the big four American networks. - jakem1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Ennoch
The majority of people will already have software on their PC, Mac, etc. that is capable of playing WMV. Furthermore, real player was so difficult to get (i.e. no free version easily available for the average person without jumping through hoops) and so crap to use that you could easily argue that the BBC has a better chance of fulfilling its charter now. - simd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Real have had this coming. Mobile technology is becoming a key area for audio and video distribution, yet the Real Player for Windows Mobile doesn't work properly - and didn't work with the BBC streams - and its web site has broken links all over it.
Now looking forward to "listen again" being WMP compatible too. (And I'm speaking as a Linux desktop user). I agree OGG would be good too, but running alternative steams does cost money for a relatively small audience. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1A very good point. The next generation information network for the NHS is hugely over budget because of the failure of Microsoft to guarantee security. Adding the BBC to it's long list of failures which are only allowed to continue because the stock market cares less for substance and more about ink on contracts is a very poorly realised step for the corporation and can only further disrupt the quality of the service available to the people who actually pay for it.
- dollyknot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It seems to me that Micromorals mountain of money is been used used to corrupt some of the Beebs exec's, in the same way that they probably used their obscene amounts of money, to corrupt the British health service into using windows, instead of open source.
- kippie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1the way i see it, the cost of increased server capacity for the rest of the world is relatively small compared to the initial cost and maintence of the service and the cost of the programming. As a license payer i'm glad that the rest of the world has access to such a high level or programming. Its the same arguement for a publiclly funded BBC world service, which acts as an incredible global service.
Also, you are allowed to listen to the radio in england without paying a license, so technically anyone could listen to these services without paying for them anyway with the right type of radio. It would be about as exspensive to enforce a UK only policy as it would be to open it up to everyone would ultimately be crackable. - Swift2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The only point of contention with me is, will the WMA use copy protection, in which case it will be inaccessible. That seems very stupid, since the Beeb is a publicly-owned entitity.
- tonybls12, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1VideoLAN - VLC media player
will work on all platforms
the new Release features many improvements,
including MacIntel support, a statistic system,
the support of DV inputs on Linux,
improvements in the Audio CD playback (CDDB),
many new and improved video filters,
a new AJAX HTTP interface, Winamp 2 Skins support,
a Mozilla plugin on Mac OS X (PowerPC only),
http://www.videolan.org/ - GreatDrok, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1In this case, Flip4Mac isn't a solution. I just tried it on my MacBook Pro and while the BBC live radio feed played for about 5 mins, it stopped after that time. Flip4Mac seems to not be a suitable streaming solution in this case. I've had the same problem with WMA streams from other sites too. Looks like Real Player is still the only viable non-Windows solution for the moment.
- streak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hmmm... I guess we have some diggers heavily invested in Microsoft combing these pages.
- bertsisterwanda, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Anything other than IE doesn't play back any of there media correctly, yes it kind of works, but is very buggy, just try playing back an archived radio show on firfeox and watch FireBug clock up the errors. The BBC should support multiple playback options!, how many digg user use WMA, i myself, have never really ever used any WMA, unless there was no other choices.
- jonnyfatman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The low bit rate thing is not down to licensing issues. It's down to bandwidth issues. The BBC has people from all over the world viewing/listening to/streaming their content.
Due the fact I've got crappy Dell speakers on my work PC, I don't mind listening at low bitrates. - gotamd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm digging this, but I prefer WMA to Real anyway and Macs AND Linux can play WMA/V.
- veeto, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I have just emailed the BBC regarding this. I noted that it will be nice not to have to use real player any more as this is the only regular site which I use it on; it'll be a shame however, not to use their site.
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