What is Digg?85 Comments
- theone3, on 10/12/2007, -33/+72Why does this keep coming up? Mac OS can't do everything Windows can. There are software applications such as specialised tools and games that require Windows. Also, Apple make the best damn hardware out there, but their software dosent suit everyone. Personally, I prefer Windows. Evidently, up to 95% of the market thinks that Windows works for them. Then finally, you have the switchers, who aren't so sure which OS they want, but would like to try both.
- tempusrob, on 10/12/2007, -15/+42"Evidently, up to 95% of the market thinks that Windows works for them."
Or they think that "Well, Dell ships Windows so that's all there is." - carguy84, on 10/12/2007, -22/+44I'd much rather be able to install OSX on a PC. Then I could test it out without forking over so much $$$ for a decent system.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17Respect given. You can tell just through how the guy writes that he's a decent fellow. At least, he comes off that way to me.
To me, he's NOT the man who came in second - he's just a flat-out good sport, and bright guy.
Dugg. - eklitzke, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17Coral Cache link:
http://daemons.net.nyud.net:8080/~clay/index.php/2006/03/15/dual-booting-windows-xp-and-mac-os-x-on-intel-macs/ - Brightstar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16The reason for putting XP on a mac = Gamers who are also video editors and hate Avid. AND I'M ONE!
- Misos, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13People want Apple hardware and software, as well as the ability to play video games. If one desires to play video games on a computer, Windows really is a must. Windows may serve the sole function of being the "gaming OS" on one's Mac. Get it now?
- Jeffrey903, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10If this guy is right, and narf's code does not work on the MacBook Pro, then narf will not win the contest. It must work on the MacBook Pro (because that was the reason the guy started the contest in the first place). Also, it must easily dual-boot between Mac and Windows, and I have yet to see any proof of that in narf's pictures or video. If it does not dual boot, narf will not win the contest (unless he is the first person to meet all of the requirements later in the future).
- KublaKhan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Nice - he gave a pseudo solution before they posted Narf's solution... hmmm.
He should really make it into a sourceforge repository - I think Narf should make his code opensource too, though...
This gets better every day - weaszel, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12Ugh, what is with you people? We have all these people complaining about "ruining perfectly good hardware", and "buying an Apple just to install Windows on it". You are being ignorant and obnoxious.
Nobody is buying a Mac _just_ to install Windows on it. One reason people are trying to get Windows on a Mac is just to say they did. For the challenge. That's just part of the essence of hacking. Other people may already have a Mac, but also need to do _real_ work. And for that real work, they need real programs, programs that are compatible with the rest of the world's software. These are the people who would dual-boot.
But, oh, if it was the other way around... It isn't "ruining perfectly good hardware" when someone puts OSX on off-the-shelf PC hardware.
I know it's all just rabid Apple fanboyism, but seriously... It's been driven into the ground. - davdav, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8It's "effect"
- ZachPruckowski, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Agree. I was first worried that narf's thing might be a fake, or not be workable on all Mactels, but seeing that there were two other groups close as well, I'm confident that there will be a free/cheap solution. My only worry is that it be easy. I mean, unless it comes in a one-CD/DVD install solution, it won't work for a lot of people, including potential switchers.
- cfazzini, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5My guess is if they know how to do it for the iMac, it won't take much modification to do it on the MBP.
- whistle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5read what blanka says about him:
http://forum.onmac.net/showthread.php?t=71 - slantyyz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Check out AirmanPika's screenshots (or more accurately, shots of his imac screen)
http://forum.osx86project.org/index.php?showtopic=11731&st=140
You just hit the up or down key to see a giant apple or a giant windows icon. Very nice. Simple and elegant.
On a side note, Blanka's comments and "missing link for vga" are interesting if you can actually read the original article and its comments. - manfesto, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Funny you mention it - http://onmac.net/ - after the solution is posted, I guess narf/blanka's work will become an open source project.
Though it may be a bit daunting at first, perhaps, as the project matures, it will become a trivial matter to dual-boot the 2 OSs - maybe a GUI wizard for the process will be written in the next few weeks.
Plus, as an open source project, it's almost guaranteed to be updated and support Vista when it comes out. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Would we not have a better chance of being able to boot an operating system we have the source code for?
- extraspecial, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If you're interested in the photos from the "remote debugging" we had to do before Clay got his MacBook Pro (last night, no less... great timing ;) ), I made them public: http://www.flickr.com/photos/extraspecial/sets/72057594074203534/
- oepapel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"True. What exactly would one get out of running Windows on a Mac? "
1) Windows-only Apps. DirectX based games, Vertical Market software. ActiveX or MFC based software. DotNET software.
2) Windows-only devices. There are many Windows-Only MP3 players, printers and video capture devices.
3) Windows-only services. There are some websites and web services that just don't work unless you are using IE and ActiveX. IE for Mac won't cut it.
In many cases, VMWare or VirtualPC for Mac won't work because they are either too slow or device drivers for the hardware to be controlled crash the emulator/virtualizer. - slantyyz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Check the forums on osx86project.org -- The testers have been posting screenshots of their results using Narf's solutions. While no Macbook shots yet, there is a dual boot menu, and it is sweet looking.
- oepapel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4" I see no proof of eithers the choise of which OS to boot"
You choose which OS to load when the Apple appears on the screen. Hitting Up or Down on the keyboard selects the WinXP logo instead of the Apple logo. Hit Enter to boot that OS. I suppose a penguin could be added (or a fedora, or whatever) to add Linux to the list. - oepapel, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6"The reason that many (including me) don't understand this is because it would be MUCH cheaper AND easier to build your own 945-based system and dual-boot. Legality is nice and all, but it's not worth a couple thousand dollars for most people."
The iMac and MacMini are both reasonably priced considering that they both use laptop components. You could build your own and the difference in price would be, maybe, a couple hundred either way, if that. That's a lot different than a couple thousand. They don't even cost a couple thousand! The "big" 20" iMac is $1699. The "big" Mac Mini is $799. And where are you going to get a laptop like the MBP that is a couple thousand less? It isn't gonna happen.
The argument that Mac's are way too expensive has been beaten to death. It just isn't true anymore. - DanmanD87, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3According to the host of the contest, narf's solution works on the 17in iMac and MacBook Pro. It just requires a little tweaking to work on the Mac Mini and 20in iMac
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Evidently, up to 95% of the market thinks that Windows works for them."
"Or they think that "Well, Dell ships Windows so that's all there is.""
Or they just dont think.
Im sure for the majority of Windows users, Windows is just the default, no thought goes into it at all. Where as choosing a Mac is generally positive decision.
Please, no more Windows Fanboy childish comments, just scalpel your prospective comments to your forehead and never come back. - junior882, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Or they think...hmmm, I run a business and 99% of the business apps I use run on Windows, and 90% of my employees know how to use Windows. What choice would you make?
- mbiesz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4The reason that many (including me) don't understand this is because it would be MUCH cheaper AND easier to build your own 945-based system and dual-boot. Legality is nice and all, but it's not worth a couple thousand dollars for most people.
- manfesto, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Um, Windows IS running native.
Subjectively speaking, in narf's video, XP seemed rather responsive - moreso than my own system (though, to be fair, my system is far from a fresh install). According to the OSx86 thread somebody mentioned above ( http://forum.osx86project.org/index.php?showtopic=11731&st=140 ), the biggest hurdle at the moment is tracking down the ATI x1600 mobility drivers for Windows. - scottythebody, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Awesome, Clay! You almost got it, and you got Digged!
Just so all the Diggies know, Clay is a friend of mine and he once got Linux to boot up a 64-way Sun Enterprise 10000 back in the year 2000, so this sort of challenge is fun for him.
See you in a week or so here in Vienna, Clay! - twisted12, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4its so that people who own a mac are able to run windows software.. a la virtual PC. I don't think anyone would buy a mac then use it only to run XP.
- davdav, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I can't find the shot of the dual boot menu.. any word?
- atezun, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"I'm using Premiere pro right now. Basically a clone of Final cut, but it has nice integration with AE encore audition etc."
That wouldn't happen to have anything to do with the fact several members from the original Premiere team developed Final Cut Pro? - RhinoSS, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Is anybody else having trouble contacting the site?
Digg effect kicking in?
I will definitely be watching this story as I'm extremely interested in seeing what's involved in emulating the BIOS on EFI. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well, I guess we really do have the source code for anything, thanks to dissassemblers.
- atrain, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"It just requires a little tweaking to work on the Mac Mini and 20in iMac"
This guys method, although not as pritty, should not require any tweaking, making it a better solution for now. I see no proof of eithers the choise of which OS to boot, but thats a matter of starting up grub rather than directly windows, which can easily be done, now that they gotten this far. - DarkSideofMoon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Question...
Since Vista won't be using EFI, and will still be using BIOS, does this mean that Vista is capable on an Intel Mac? If Windows XP uses the BIOS, this should work, no?
Anybody with insight? - Livert, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Doesn't matter whether you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning :P
- master_of_fm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1dont forget thermonuclear devices
- Beanlover, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Everyone please block johnjoseph12 for spamming these stupid links in all the frontpage stories.
- kickarse, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Amazing still
- ssutherland, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1All the confusion about why someone would want to run this OS on that hardware...
I'd love to be able to run Windows apps (though I could care less about Windows itself) because then I could justify buying a Mac at work. Most of what I do is easily done on a Mac, but every place I have worked has involved a couple of things that either require the latest version of IE or some windows-only app. The only thing that keeps me from using a Mac is the inability to support those few tasks. And yes, I have tried emulation and it has always been too damn slow to bear.
I'd also like to be able to run MacOS on a PC hardware because I have always enjoyed building my own machines. Now that the Mac Mini is here, it's less about the price and more about being able to do it. The only problem with the boxes I've built is that they only run Windows and Linux. - evensong, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Wrong. Narf also submitted a working solution that meets all requirements and plans to release his code.
In fact narf, blanka, and clay from above plan on pooling to a sourceforge to get the best out of both methods. And if BAMBIOS by IBM contributes, the method will be further refined. A bug-free boot of Windows on intel-mac is a reality not too far away. - iMactel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Interesting read, though I don't have the understanding to know what most of the programming references mean. I'd love to see this get super solid. Cheers to those who were willing to use their equipment to test for the people coding... it takes more balls than I have to potentially sacrifice my shiny new 20" iMac.
- rmagen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well, you can see in the comments to his write-up that Blanka (narf's partner) doesn't seem too concerned.
He actually explains how they hacked the VGA, and if I'm not mistaken it is a universal solution - GrinningFool, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"Evidently, up to 95% of the market thinks that Windows works for them."
Or -- this may come as a shock -- they have no clue what an "Operating System" is, and just use their computers as they're shipped. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0You know what they say; second best is the first loser...
But thanks for all the effort, we all appreciate you guys out there for working on this.
Cheers! - cfazzini, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I love it... "Take a picture now...."
- cwaidoh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I was only speculating that it might not work on other platforms due to differences in the video cards, and there have been some issues related to video, but for the most part, their solution will work on all the Intel Macs.
- cwaidoh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Understanding disassembler output isn't quite as easy as understanding the original C source code, but sometimes that's your only option. In this case, I disassembled the XP CD boot loader and NTLDR to figure out why things were failing, but I can't say it was easy. NTLDR is over 97k lines of assembly, with no symbols (variables and function names) and no comments to reference. It's a rare breed that gets a thrill out of following a program's stack usage with paper and pencil :)
- scottythebody, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I know him; he's a nice guy and quite a decent fellow.
- Nachoes, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Yep, it's down :(
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