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108 Comments
- rspeed, on 10/17/2007, -6/+58I'm really enjoying this series of articles about Leopard.
- postalblowfish7, on 10/17/2007, -1/+32there was a lot of skepticism regarding the usefulness of expose too, and now i can't live without it.
- ORBAT, on 10/17/2007, -0/+16Did you actually, you know, read the article? I know, it sounds like a ridiculous idea but you might want to give it a try.
- edcrosay, on 10/17/2007, -0/+15Did you even read the article? The majority of it described where Apple borrowed the idea from and the history of virtual desktops.
- diabulos, on 10/13/2007, -0/+12Is looking like Leopard may make me switch...Vista is not quite ticking all the boxes yet for me.....this looks good.
- mym6, on 10/17/2007, -15/+27The pot shots on Windows aren't necessary and some of them are simply wrong. Windows 98 had support for multiple monitors and I found it worked very well most of the time.
Spaces sounds like a great deal for power users, I don't think my mom would ever use such a feature but I'd rather have the feature available to me than not. I like how the interface appears to work and how it is all implemented. For a few years during college I used Linux and virtual desktops almost exclusively for work.
Today I've pretty much quit using virtual desktops in Linux for a number of reasons. I now spend the majority of my time on a Windows computer using two monitors and I very much prefer this over using virtual desktops in Linux. While dual displays can work in Linux, there are more hoops to jump through and once you have it working it all feels a bit more clunky to me. Because of this, my usage pattern has pretty much discarded the notion of virtual desktops so even when I'm on a system that isn't capable of dual screen (laptop, my mac mini) I just alt-tab. I've found that I'm usually flipping between two windows and a quick alt-tab is just as quick for me as using switching to a different virtual desktop. That and simply overlapping windows (not keeping things fullscreen) so I can find things quickly. - dagamer34, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Spaces, nice for completely hiding porn-surfing windows. Obviously the best new feature in Leopard!
- Ireland, on 10/13/2007, -2/+11Spaces will never be another Exposé, Exposé is too good.
- superkendall, on 10/17/2007, -2/+11Actually the assumptions that applications have to make in todays OS X (with Expose for example) do ensure that applications will work better than they did in the Windows MSVDM (which was never moved outside Powertoys for a reason). Did you even read the article? They already explained a bit why what you say is not the case for Mac apps.
That's what you get for having a Quartz translation years in the past, meaning that most apps never have to care if they are scaled or otherwise currently invisible. Also of course, the way Macs handle modal dialogs helps as well since they are attached to the window in whatever space that WIndow lives in... - coolbru, on 10/17/2007, -1/+9"Windows 98 had support for multiple monitors and I found it worked very well most of the time."
Apart from all the apps that misbehaved, that you couldn't mix resolutions, refresh rates or colour depths, that it centred alerts (yes, right on the join between monitors). Most of the support in Win98 that actually worked came from the likes of Matrox' dual-head graphics cards that hid the fact that you had multiple monitors from the OS. I was well spolt by then anyway, having used a Mac IIfx with six 21" monitors in 1990, though that did cost over $20,000! - DnasTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Interesting article, but it's very clear that the author's experience with past implementations of virtual desktops is hearsay at best. From the article, I see nothing special about this implementation. Every feature I've seen before.
The complaint about the Cube effect in Compiz/Beryl is particularly amusing. Both Compiz and Beryl can do sliding effects, and there are several window managers that already do them, including e16 which is older than Mac OS X.
I have no doubt that Mac users will find Spaces useful, but this is an instance of Apple playing catchup, despite what the article claims. There is not a shred of new material brought to the table here. Nor is the implementation particularly thrilling. It seems to be good, but not better than what's already out there.
Oh well, now Windows is stuck as the only OS not to have virtual desktops. (The 3rd-party addons don't count. I shouldn't have to hunt for an addon to get an essential feature for a work environment. Plus, I have never seen a single one that's worth using. I don't know if it's because the Windows API is simply weak or that Windows developers don't know what they're doing, but something's missing.) - harlowsmonkeys, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7What virtual desktops provide that OS X currently lacks is a way to organize windows by task. Tools such as Expose organize windows by application, not by task.
Example: you are working on proposal for a new server. You have a window open in your word processor where you are writing the proposal, another window open on a spreadsheet where you are working out costs, and a couple browser windows open on vendor sites. The proposal is one task, involving three applications. You might also be working on another task, say analyzing hits on your website. You have a browser window opened on your web stats page, and you have a spreadsheet window opened on a copy of your hit data so you can make some nice graphs to visualize the data. That's another task, using two of the same applications that you are using for the first task, but different windows.
With a virtual desktop system, you can put all the windows from the first task in one desktop, and all the windows from the second task in another desktop, and then you can switch between them.
Here's another way to look at the problem. Imagine a two dimensional matrix made out of all your windows, organized so that windows from a given application are all in the same row, and windows from a given task are all in the same column. Expose, and also show/hide, work with rows in the matrix (actually, Expose also works with the whole matrix). Virtual desktops work with columns. Thinking of it this way, it is clear that Expose and virtual desktops address different problems, and ideally you want both. I'm looking forward to Leopard. - rspeed, on 10/17/2007, -1/+7I've used both quite a bit, actually.
Between the two I like Spaces more since it seems to be focused on being useful rather than eye candy (what an odd comparison between OS X and Linux). The cube effect for switching desktops is slick eye candy and plenty intuitive, but since the far edges of the two desktops have to shrink when changing, it's difficult to track what's happening and I end up being disoriented for a second. But yeah, after Spaces, Compiz absolutely the best one. - chrysrobyn, on 10/17/2007, -1/+6Spaces will be of no value to some people -- single taskers, people who can't visualize stuff they can't see , like my Mom.
I typically run my work machine (Red Hat Linux) with 6 virtual desktops, and one of them goes to a VNC session on my AIX machine with 5 virtual desktops. Every one has something on it, and they subdivide different parts of my job. Not all of them need both screens (1400x1050 + 1600x1200), but some of them do. The different spaces (11 in all) help me concentrate on the task at hand, even if it's taking a 5 minute Digg break. - decker12, on 10/17/2007, -3/+7These have been decent articles, but I could really use less of the history lesson (that pushes more ads down my throat). Also, the constant MS Windows bashing is transparent and unnecessary - we're already going to upgrade to Leopard, we're not going to switch to XP.
- RexMaxus, on 10/17/2007, -0/+4Spaces is part of Expose'.
- Chirp08, on 10/17/2007, -0/+4I'm looking forward to this at work, I can run Windows applications such as outlook via parallels in one space, than put photoshop/indesigns etc. in another osx space, than anything else such as web browsers/ftp in another. It will keep everything nice and organized when working.
- iamgnat, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Even with two monitors, i've always been an avid virtual desktop user since I started using X11 in the mid 90s. For me it's more of an organization thing than anything else.
Currently I use DesktopManager with Tiger (though the issues on Intel Macs are annoying, it's still better than the alternatives IMHO) as it gives me the clean and simple approach that i've grown accustom to.
I've been playing with Spaces on my MBP and while generally I think it is nice (simple to use, fast, no glitz), though they shouldn't have tied in applications like they did. Spreading application windows across multiple spaces (say multiple terminal windows, the Xcode docs vs a project, etc..) is annoying and can confuse it.
It's much better in the post WWDC builds, but I still have issues where if I switch to a Space that has an application with windows spread across multiple spaces it starts jumping between the spaces where the application has it's windows in an endless cycle.
While the "clicking on the dock icon will take you to the application's space" sound nice in principle, I find it annoying when i've switched to another space specifically to open a new window. If you minimize a window, change spaces, and then un-minimize it it will jump back to the space where the window was minimized.
All in all, I really get the feeling that Apple is trying to tell me how best to work rather than giving me the tools that allow me to optimize my workflow.
Maybe once i'm not using Tiger/DesktopManager all day and Leopard/Spaces at night i'll stop noticing some of this and get used to it.
-dave - calhoun, on 10/17/2007, -6/+10I agree, these articles are all pretty interesting and detailed, but the author's constant digs on Windows detract from the rest of the article and are just unnecessary.
- msgyrd, on 10/17/2007, -1/+5The "Road" to Leopard. The title implies a history lesson.
- smhill, on 10/17/2007, -0/+4or 22 years ago on the Amiga. ;)
- MrDo, on 10/17/2007, -0/+4Me too, I have been using virtual desktops for years on Linux at work.
- inactive, on 10/17/2007, -0/+4I've been using VirtueDesktops on Tiger for several months now. Regularly alternating between work and play when possible is a good way to prevent procrastination, and virtual desktops help me do that.
- smhill, on 10/17/2007, -0/+4Yea! Fanboy bashing!
Where did anyone say this is a new concept? Everyone knows this is a common tool and been around forever (even before linux). No one is claiming the concept is new, you are bashing on non-existent fanboyism. - superkendall, on 10/17/2007, -1/+4This builds on top, and makes Expose even better.
- Billions, on 10/17/2007, -1/+4Out of all the features on Leopard, this is the one I'm looking forward to the most, believe it or not. Seems silly, but it's true. Exposé has been one of the best features in computing in the last few years, and I think this could have a similar impact on my day-to-day work... A "space" devoted to IM/Skype and e-mail, another 'space' for audio programs, another for graphics or video. Simple improvements in using your computer that speed up interacting with information and programs. I like it. I guess we'll see in a few weeks.
- rinks, on 10/17/2007, -0/+3How do you figure? This has been done for years on computers much weaker than yours.
- NoOneButMe, on 10/17/2007, -0/+3Fusion in full screen mode in a 2ed window?
- cyberwiz01, on 10/17/2007, -0/+3Expo is the plugin where all the desktops are arranged in a wall. The cube plugin is completely different.
- RexMaxus, on 10/17/2007, -2/+5The point is that Spaces is really easy to use.
I think you may have forgotten to do a few things, like reading the article. It address Linux and Windows (virtual desktops and alt+tab) and comments on how Spaces easily integrates into the OS. It might be easier to think of Spaces as expose' for your desktops, but I'm not entirely sure you've ever use a Mac. - rinks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I have Vista (preinstalled on new PC, no old copies of XP laying around). I don't hate Vista by any means, but I wish the fancy Aero Start-tab worked like Expose, which I found invaluable on my old iBook.
- Kelmon, on 10/17/2007, -0/+3It's not a proper article if Windows isn't bashed somewhere. Besides, it's fun, although a bit like shooting fish in a barrel.
- JeremyBanks, on 10/17/2007, -0/+3"I don't need Transmit, TextMate, and CSS Edit taking up space in the dock when I'm not working."
Command+H or Command+Q sounds like a simpler solution. - rspeed, on 10/17/2007, -0/+3It's a rumor site... they're not really journalists.
- vawksel, on 10/17/2007, -0/+3I love it, I put a todo-list, a console output from my program Im working on and a small browser pointing to some data on one page, and my IDE on another, and Photoshop on another (photoshop doesn't have a background and it gets confusing seeing all the other windows bleed through), and generic web-browsing on yet another.
It works great for me. - smhill, on 10/17/2007, -0/+2Linux isn't a company or a single entity. Those are all technically 3rd party apps for various linux base UIs.
In that respect there are several virtual desktop managers for both Win and Mac. - smhill, on 10/17/2007, -0/+2"Essentially, the DOCK on OSX is the QUICK LAUNCH BAR we've had on Windows since Win95. "
Then you aren't really that familiar with the dock. I don't think you have looked into it enough and understand what it is doing. It is way beyond the quick launch bar. The dock provides pretty much the same functionality as the quicklaunch, taskbar and start menu.
Quick launch is obvious.
Task bar : you get multiple ways to view not only your open apps, but the windows within them and additional application features. Say you have ten safari windows open, right click on the safari icon and you will see a list of all your windows much liked stacked windows in the task bar. Additionally minimized windows appear there with visual representations of what is going on. They don't all show up, only the ones you choose. Right click on an app like iTunes or VLC and your controls are right there.
Start menu : You can place any folder there and browse it by right clicking. Your apps folder, even your whole hard drive. Customize it however you want.
Granted it is a personal preference, but I prefer visual representations over little boxes with tiny icons and text. If you dont stack and you have a bunch of things open, it becomes almost unreadable.
Basically all the things you prefer on the task bar are there in the dock, plus much more. You just need to understand how to use it.
----
Expose doesn't "fix" what you may think are problems, it simply adds many more ways to access things depending how you like to work. For example, say you have a bunch of safari windows open and you are in a different app and want to get to it. you can:
- right-click on safari in the dock and select the window
- Cmd+Tab to Safari then Tilde+Tab to the window
- Opt+F3 to focus the dock and use the arrow keys to access the window.
- Expose(all) to the window
- if you have a ton of windows open, Cmd+tab to the app and then Expose(app)
Though in truth I rarely use the dock at all. I use Expose + QuickSilver. - paulgibson, on 10/17/2007, -0/+2I'm glad to see that apple has considered the behavior of spaces with multiple monitors. I can see this becoming very usefully for me.
- heathuff23, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Quit spamming digg!!
Diggers, click on his profile here:
http://digg.com/users/jordanshoes
and then digg him down and choose "report as offensive"
He keeps creating new accounts with this spam garbage - r3zonance, on 10/17/2007, -0/+2"Perhaps it is implied that the ability to organise applications into different Spaces will encourage more applications to be opened at the same time. Not sure but that's my interpretation."
But with the nice *nix memory management, that shouldn't matter. It doesn't currently. - r3zonance, on 10/17/2007, -0/+2And apps still misbehave with multi-monitors even in Windows XP, Visual Studio 2003 being a prime example.
- antitab, on 10/17/2007, -0/+2Here's what makes Spaces the killer in virtual desktops for me, after years of Linux and VirtueDesktops use: Integration. Spaces integrates flawlessly with the Dock, Exposé, and Growl. If you get a notification from another space, you're sent right to it. If you click an app residing on another space, you're there. If you're in the Spaces overview, you can F9 to see an Exposé on all your windows in every space. It's really fantastic. It's minor, but the one thing it has over VirtueDesktops is visual consistency, in that only applications are paged out, not the entire desktop including Dock and menu bar.
- coolbru, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I suspect that virtual desktops make much more sense with Windows MDI apps - because maximised apps take over the whole screen, you need more space to work in if you're not going to spend you entire life resizing windows. This also leads to the Windows user's miscomprehension of the zoom button in MacOS. Mac OS's have never suffered from that kind of interface, and thus never benefited quite as much from virtual desktops.
Similarly, I find I almost never minimise windows. I use window and application layering and hiding rather than that, and I find it all works very nicely even when I have 100 windows open in 30 apps on two 19" monitors (though that kind of volume makes Exposé less useful too as the images are often too small to make stuff out). I might just be weird though. Drag & drop combined with cmd-tab or Exposé works beautifully too. I just wish everything had tabs as cool as iTerm's. - superkendall, on 10/17/2007, -1/+3Read the article man, the whole first few pges are all about previous virtual desktop implementations!
An people think Apple fanbois are bad - they aren't nearly as bad as the Apple Haters who come out with every Apple story to relate the same tired anti-Apple rants even when they don't apply to the article in question. - rinks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I agree that this is nothing new under the sun, but I disagree that "3rd party addons don't count". As to whether or not a viable one exists at the moment, I don't know, but 3rd party apps certainly occupy a valued space in my decision when it comes to OSes.
- wolfmanstout, on 10/17/2007, -0/+2Dude, RTFA: "The idea of using multiple graphical desktops on a single system for a single user dates back into the mid 80s. It's probably not surprising that the first implementation of virtual desktops originated at Xerox PARC, the Mesopotamia of graphical computing."
Even the article description addresses this ... - superkendall, on 10/17/2007, -1/+3In the past I;ve found virtual desktops very handy for specifically arranged sets of windows from multiple applications - like for example a web browser and IDE. It's a pain to shift just the browser windows and coding windows back to the right layering if you have mixed in other browser windows and applications.
Also they are delightful for log file monitoring... - politicalslug, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6***** this! Now I'm just getting jealous. I have Vista and two monitors and there is absolutely no reason why this can't be done on Microsoft's platform, as it's being done on OSX.
SO WHY ISN'T IT BEING DONE, REDMOND???
I've never owned a mac (though i have an iPhone and have been through 4 iPods) but I have to admit, day by day, it's looking as though buying a mac is fast becoming a good idea. - blackjack75, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Would be perfect (for any use, seriously) if it could run a different user desktop in a different space (that would stay open until you log out)
- Sairgem, on 10/17/2007, -0/+2Everyone steals from everyone else, deal with it.
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