What is Digg?96 Comments
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -7/+100The conclusion is incorrect - if it were accurate, OpenOffice would gain no traction either as it does not support VBA. Yet it has, because in the real world only a documents author really uses macros much and readers almost never do.
In fact it's completely backwards - note this part of the statement:
"but on the flip side, the company said it’s going to increase support for standard Mac scripting methods like AppleScript and Automator."
That will INCREASE use of Office, since finally you'll be able to use Office with Automator. It will make Office a first-class citizen on the Mac in a way it has not been before.
As a small side benefit, it makes Macs even less suseptble to viruses than it already was since VBA macro virues will no longer be able to run. - Brereton55, on 10/12/2007, -10/+37I really enjoy Office 2007 I applaud Microsoft for their efforts
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24I just wish that OO.o would make the default settings so they're less memory intensive, that they would integrate a e-mail application..even a take on thunderbird. Do a *****-ton more research into usability and organization of buttons/menu's... through in a grammar checker... possibly a contextual spell checker, the ability to publish to blogs straight from writer.. and get some better default icons. is that really too much to ask?
either that or Koffice. i don't get why it's so hard for anyone, just anyone.. open source or closed source to make something that's better than MS office.
I'm a linux fanboy, but MS truly has this product down.
people think they're making mistakes by not supporting macs... whoopdee do. they're not going to lose much here. the market share for macs really isn't all that high. - earthtoandy, on 10/12/2007, -8/+29Agreed. Office has always been an Aqua outsider. Little to no integration and they follow their own interface rules, which isn't a great idea being its microsoft. And no more macro "viruses", thank god. Now norton antivirus for mac is truly useless
But not Universal? Come the hell on. - iomegaboy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23Yes, but unlike Creative Suite CS2 software, the current MS Office for Mac runs like lightning on my Mac Pro through Rosetta. Don't see this as an issue.
- d722002, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18"I'm a linux fanboy, but MS truly has this product down."
At least you're an honest Linux Fanboy. Most people are so wrapped up in whatever OS or browser they use that they cant admit when the opposition does something right.
I applaud your honesty. Dugg up. - colincornaby, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20Unlike the author, I see this as a good thing. No more dealing with Macro Viruses at work, in since for some reason Microsoft won't let you disable macros in Office:Mac. And we've tried getting people to click no when Office asks to enable macros, but people just don't seem to understand...
- vinbob, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16@superkendall
I'm sorry but you're wrong about OpenOffice as it does support VBA scripting in version 2.0.4 onwards.
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/VBA - Saiing, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13As a contractor, I've worked in maybe a dozen large corporations, across all departments. I've yet to come across an Office Macro.
What I can't understand is why it's taken Apple so long to build something that can compete. - pixelmixer, on 10/12/2007, -30/+42@earthtoandy
Whens the last time anyone got a bluescreen? come on.. stop comparing OSX to Windows 98.. BSOD's never happen anymore unless you do something incredibly stupid or have some rare random hardware incompatibility.
If you buy a pre-build PC like most people do, you'll never see a BSOD.
I hate it when people compare Windows to OSX so much... its just stupid... try using OSX on multiple hardware setups and see how that does? OSX86? crashes, slowdowns...
Mac != Windows... but Mac is not greater than windows.. windows is not greater than mac. they're in two different areas. If I havent explained it well enough... Windows runs on a hell of alot of different platforms... Mac runs on only apple hardware, even if it were allowed to run on others it likely wouldnt work very well.
btw... Linux pwns them both... - Dark_Ice, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Since when was Norton ever usefull... on any platform... like... ever?
- BassCadet, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7In a similar job to you and I have only seen one Macro that was heavily used by multiple users. I see more people using templates and forms and less reliance upon macros (probably due to security concerns).
- nickw252, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8A big problem with this is that many people switch to Macs because of the fact that we have "Microsoft" Office. It is kind of like a safety net that is reassuring. A lot of people may not switch if there is an office program, but not necessarily Microsoft Office.
- Casedot, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10yeah you definitely need a grammar checker...lol
- bblades, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Some people need to live in an "office environment", a majority of consumers only need a solid word processor, and perhaps good presentation and database software. Open/NeoOffice can do both just fine, and they are both constantly improving through the open source community. I wouldn't give Microsoft one more penny than I have to. Funny how every other version of office has a zero day warning right when 2007 is coming out
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6a couple hundred million bucks is no big deal to MS. a piss in the ocean.
- yableo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6it actually pisses me off when I see apple fans using office like a crutch.
I use free software thats BETTER.
why do they have to make a word processor so complicated?? - tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5If AppleScript *may* be able to replicate the functionality of VBA macros, as the author suggests, then surely it wouldn't be impossible to have a macro converter built-in or as an addon?
- dusanmal, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@pixelmixer
Just yesterday I ave had a series of BSOD's on fully updated Win XP Pro running on relatively ordinary hardware with quite ordinary software. Installed Intervideo DVD software. Rebooted, logged in... BSOD. After few tries and disabling of some vital features (ex. firewall!) BSOD cycle stopped. Likely reason? Win XP allowed software to alter many settings of no concern to DVD creator and crucial for safety (ex. again the abovementioned firewall and also such things as power management settings and other ...). There lies MS problem. By default programs are allowed too much freedom to wreck havoc on the system. You won't find this in Mac or Linux... I use latter when possible and agree with the last line. Linux rules... - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I'm not sure this is such a big deal. I rarely see live macros in Office documents. I know a few people who use them to create documents but generally they are left out of the final document that actually gets sent around to people to view. So let's say out of the 5% of the market that uses Mac Office maybe 1-2% use Macro's and, if they've been using a Mac, chances are they're already comfortable with AppleScript anyway.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I had heard this from a support rep for a product called MathType, a VBA based equation editor for Office that some of our teachers use... VBA always seemed a bit flaky on the Mac, if they can replace it with Applescript equivalents, and still provide the same functionality, i think it could make the program better. I'm just waiting for the UB version, after working with Office on my dual 2.0 G5 at home, the Core Duo Mini at work seems really slow, and our Core Solo Minis that we have in the labs are even worse, and Office crashes Rosetta randomely..
- maninblac1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I'm not understanding the problem, Microsoft is moving on, past it's older technologies. Visual Basic at its core has been around for 15 years now, now obviously it's not what it used to be by any means but Visual Basic is an old technology, one that MS has been trying to slowly wipe it's hands of for about 8 years now.
With the coming of Vista and Longhorn, MS is trying to clean up the cob-webs and force some change into developement, which is always met by resistance from developers. Microsoft has been pushing .NET for 4 years now, with Vista, .NET (or WinFX as they're calling it now) will see it's culmination. They have been pushing for managed code and all the bells and whistles, this is MS's way of getting their way. It's not that you can't use VBA, you shouldn't, at least not anymore.
Take for example i worked on a project concerning the redevelopement of heart monitoring software. It was originally written in VBA(old VBA too), the client hired us to recode it in a more modern language (C#), since the program was in bad need of update and maintanence. Programs need to be re-writen, it's not like doing all the things you did in Office 2004 will be impossible in 2007, you'll just have to do them differently, get over it. - SecondGuesser, on 10/12/2007, -17/+20I love when the geeks get into the Mac vs. Windows bitch sessions. So childish. I use both platforms extensively, and both have their strengths and weaknesses. For what it's worth, my take is this. There's technically nothing you can do on Mac that you can't do on Windows for much cheaper. That being said, Mac does many things extremely well that Windows simply does a piss poor job at. In my experience, it is generally anything to do with audio, video, and graphics. I use both Mac Office and Office on Windows and Office on Windows is much more efficient.
Windows users are well aware of the platform's deficiencies - there's always room for improvement. But Mac users are like religious zealots - they simply cannot take the criticism. I can't wait to see if Vista puts MS ahead. I'd suspect Mac users would never admit it even if it did.
(This comment written from my Mac.) - smeager, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@nofxjunkee
If the rumors are true then not having Office:Mac 2007 until later in 2007 won't be an issue. Supposedly TextEdit (similar to Microsoft's notepad type app but with more functionality) will be able to read Office's new xml formats (docx,pptx,xlsx, etc...) natively. So even if it takes the MBU longer then expected to release its new version, Mac users will still be able to read documents in the new format. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4why are you all so critical of MS, if you're so against them, stop buying the products, period
you won't see them crying - kwojniak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Microsoft could have solved this easily:
Write an internal VB -> Apple Events converter. No need to mess with messy opcodes, just hire some guys to parse the VB syntax and convert each command to an equivalent AppleScript command (or better yet, raw Apple Event). Why is that so difficult? - st3v, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Who cares if Microsoft drops support for VB in Mac Office? Let the MacHeads use iWork's Pages for their document needs.
- Diganta, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5@pixelmixer "you'll never see a BSOD".
Sorry dude, you are completely wrong on Windows XP never BSOD on a OEM machines. That happened to our Dell Precision workstations every time we ran a demo and eventually Dell told us to uninstall the sound card driver to solve that problem. I've seen several new XP machines from OEMs BSOD with in the first day or week of use. For most machines this doesn't happen, but to say "never BSOD" is too bold of a statement.
"Mac runs on only apple hardware, even if it were allowed to run on others it likely wouldnt work very well." That's pure speculation. Yet you say "Linux pwns them both...". Obviously you've never had the joy of trying to get your WiFi card to your on your Linux box (yes, things are much better these days with Ubuntu et. al but not quite there yet). - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3When Office 2007 OpenXML files are flying around everywhere in a year's time (or less) this will be more of an issue. Office 2004 is still the latest available on the Mac.
- Midnightbrewer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Some of what you want falls outside of what OpenOffice is aiming to be. Why include an email application when Thunderbird already exists? Also, being able to publish directly to your weblog from Writer? That's definitely a very small minority of users. Again, there's a lot of software dedicated to weblog authoring that does it better. Don't use a sword where a needle will do. You're asking the programmers to divide their attention and put it on tasks that will take away from the improvement of an already huge software package.
- zacmccormick, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3This really isn't that big of a deal as long as there is some programmability support via AppleScript or whatever. Anyone who truly needs their VB macro can port it themselves. Now if we can only convince MS to drop VB from Windows too, we can remove this Satan spawn programming language from everything!
- rickcarson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Actually, programs like Excel and Word started out on the Macintosh way way back, and they have generally always been pretty good, usually as good if not better than the Windows equivalents.
But then hey, I thought Hypercard was a pretty neat application, so what do I know? - RetroEvolute, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3It's not a big mistake, nor is it a mistake at all. Microsoft wants money, as does every company. Here's how this situation works: Office 07 is released with Vista. Businesses begin updating their computers with the latest software (Vista and Office 07). Businesses then have to stay with Microsoft instead of switching over to Macs, because their most important software (Microsoft Office) is not yet available on Mac. When the Mac version comes out, most companies will already have the Windows Version and therefore... More money for Microsoft. This is not really a big deal. It's just how the corporate world works.
At least Microsoft is nice enough to port their software over to their competition at all. I'm sure Microsoft will fix any problems with the software later on, as well. It's not like there's nothing that can be done. - TinyClanger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The article's talking about Visual Basic for Applications — the macro language in Office — not full-on Visual Basic, which would certainly be a sod to port to Mac :)
- gsnedders, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The Office: Mac team has around 70 people (Windows Office has over 700 people working on it).
- guigouz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Office for mac always sucked. Rosetta makes it even worse.
Move to http://www.neooffice.org - DucksofAnaheim, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1FUD on a Mac fanboy site (digg) will not change things.Listen to pro-apple Leo Laporte and hear him RAVE about the new Office , with an interface (Ribbon) so cool they are licensing it to others.
- rossinio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Just open my really simple word documents without playing with table layouts or formatting OO, argh!
- saichele, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Say what you will about Apple being a hardware company, but I for one would love it if they actually kicked down and created a REAL office suite that could rival MS's.
- rickcarson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It would probably be a significant amount of effort (read as: a Metric *****) if Office was written in Cocoa. The amount of work to expose even a single method as an Applescript event is not trivial. And it doesn't get easier as you add more.
For something not written in Cocoa, but written in Carbon... I'd assume the difficulty goes up by a long way. Frankly I'm impressed with how scriptable it is already. - MagnetoWasRight, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6"What I can't understand is why it's taken Apple so long to build something that can compete."
Because it'll be competing against a business juggernaut that has something like 99.9% marketshare in business environments. Also, because Microsoft has more or less been willing to develop Office on the Mac and because the MacBU usually made it an excellent piece of software.
I'd like to see Apple come out with a robust iWork suite to compete against Office, but it's an uphill battle to get all the features and support into place (full compatibility with Office would be ESSENTIAL) and then to convince business buyers that they should dedicate their limited software budgets to the new kind on the block. - superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Well, the plus side then of Open Office supporting VBA is it gives Mac owners an option to read the documents that require it (though I still think it would be very, very few).
- mjsteinbaugh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The only program I use with Visual Basic scripting is EndNote. Unfortunately I use this for writing manuscripts and papers, so I won't be upgrading to Office 2007 on the Mac any time soon.
- gmallard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'll bet there are some under the cover guts to VBA that need to be CLS compliant, and cannot easily do that and still support VBA.
They could not (or do not want to) expend that effort for VBA in the given time frame. - tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I think you're dismissing it a little too easily though. Many Mac users are almost religious in their choice, and won't switch to Windows just to get the new Office - they'll just put up with the old version on Mac. Let's face it, not many businesses use Mac, so there's not many corporate switchers to worry about (who would switch to get office, I agree, they're just very few in numbers). So by not releasing a decent Office.Mac, Microsoft aren't gaining new Windows users or more money, they're just cutting themselves off from another segment of the market. Office.Mac is the biggest 3rd party app for Mac, and while dropping it won't bring down Microsoft by any stretch, I'm sure it's a market that Microsoft still want.
- Karmakin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I havn't heard anything that there won't be a simple automated tool for the average person to use. The article mentions losing the Macro Recorder as the major loss. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to convert the Macro Recorder to use Automator or AppleScript.
But then above, he's talking about people using massive VBA custom scripts to auto-populate Excel Documents.
You don't do that with the Macro Recorder :D
No, they probably did the numbers and found that the feature wasn't used by enough people to justify the cost of programming it. That's how things work. - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1People shouldn't have to upgrade their OS to open a word document, especially existing Office:mac customers. But since many Mac users do upgrade I guess that's a pretty good point. If the documents are Excel spreadsheets or complex documents then that point is moot again though. In a business environment they often are complex.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+110 for i = 1 to 100 {
20 echo "BASIC pwns u!"
30 }
40 exit - sworoc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I would love to see that too, but it won't happen. Apple would never concentrate that many resources to fix such a small problem.
It doesn't matter......
On another note, MS is much more afraid of Linux and FOSS than Apple, the very nature of Open Source makes it uncontrollable.... there is no company to buy out when it comes to Linux, it will always be around. (If they were to try and buy out Linux, I would say they would try Novell first..... wait, nevermind). - smeager, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Oh no I completely agree that people shouldn't have to update their OS just to read a new "standard" that is in Office 2007. Unfortunately that will be the case because Microsoft and the MBU will not have either the format converters or the new version out until after Apple releases 10.5 and most people will be running (either by purchasing an upgrade or what comes with a newly purchased Mac) it by the time Microsoft releases Office:Mac.
Then they decide to cripple the cross-plateformability by removing VBA. Not good in my opinion. -
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