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Microsoft bombshell: no EFI support for Vista
apcmag.com — Microsoft revealed today that it will not support EFI booting for Windows Vista on its launch. The news will be a shock for owners of Intel Macs who had hoped they would be able to dual-boot between Windows Vista and OS X. Intel Macs only support booting via EFI.
frofro- 1536 diggs
- digg it
- Kazaki, on 10/12/2007, -7/+27NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
And Vista EFI boots will never be supported on 32 bit chips. ARGH.
...I wonder if Maxxuss would reverse his trend a bit and get Windows on Intel Macs?- achille, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Does the current beta version support EFI ?
- netherbound, on 10/12/2007, -64/+28Vista officially totally sucks now!
M$ has not been able to land any of the promised stuff and now they are going to force an industry to stick with an archaic bottleneck such as BIOS!
God I hope Apple decides to release OS X to the masses so we can move away from BIOS once and for all!- 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -52/+27Since when did Microsoft promise you could run Vista on a Mac? IOn launch Vista will deliver many excellent things that real Windows users want and those things will be supplemented with many more excellent things as time progresses.
- Olle, on 10/12/2007, -8/+97of7,
Your parent post never stated that MS had promised Vista on Macs. He was referring to EFI support.
- sud0n1m, on 10/12/2007, -11/+19This is quite a shame - but also a big boost for the efforts to build an open source windows booter for the Intel Macs.
- borntobedown, on 10/12/2007, -61/+10This should make it to the front page.
- PathDaemon, on 10/12/2007, -36/+4ORLY
- cjonpayne, on 10/12/2007, -56/+2Um, wow. Just...wow...
- mwales, on 10/12/2007, -60/+14Yawn..... (Linux user)
- macgabriel87, on 10/12/2007, -51/+7i tried to abolish windows from my house and wanted to put linux on the pc. the installation went well. but then everything went nuts. there's chaos everywhere. everything is so disorganized. it's a mess with a lost cause. linux will probably fade away. i still dislike windows tho.
- antoniojvr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8The reason Linux will never make it is because there is no tech support for noobs (like me). It is the most unfrendliest os out there. C'mon, Linux people. Make a SIMPLE how-to.
- Takumi, on 10/12/2007, -10/+19Gaaah just when i was hoping that it would be made somewhat easier to have OSX and Windows in unison. Really blows, though I'm still intent on getting a macbook pro
- cfizzo, on 10/12/2007, -62/+6macbook sucks
powerbook is cool - LucianSolaris, on 10/12/2007, -18/+12talking about the kernel rewrite, they went back to before nt4 and made most/all drivers userland instead of kernelspace. you can't "secure" a kernel, it only interacts with the hardware on instruction from userland/shell.
microsoft is doing nothing new here, they just took a few steps back in design and called an improvement.
oh yea... GO LINUX!!! - geezusfreeek, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5luciansolaris: "talking about the kernel rewrite, they went back to before nt4 and made most/all drivers userland instead of kernelspace. you can't "secure" a kernel, it only interacts with the hardware on instruction from userland/shell.
microsoft is doing nothing new here, they just took a few steps back in design and called an improvement."
Actually, this is not a step backward. While I wouldn't call it a feature for consumers, this actually makes things much easier for the developers. Pulling things into the user space makes the kernel itself much more simple and easier to secure. There is still work to be done for the drivers, but it is all made much more modular, so it is easier to isolate yourself from the other goings in the computer when working on drivers. Read up on microkernels for more information.
- cfizzo, on 10/12/2007, -62/+6macbook sucks
- Takumi, on 10/12/2007, -10/+44Also Microsoft have ditched so many features they promised it is really starting to annoy me, im not saying they promised EFI but that was a big point for me along with the new file system WinFS. It really bugs me
- robche, on 10/12/2007, -33/+22that statement shows how ignorant you really are on the subject. Vista has a completley re-written kernel among other things, wise up on the subject before you rant on it.
- aemaeth7, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18@turgor:
DirectX 10 (and later versions) will be Vista only. - eklitzke, on 10/12/2007, -10/+27@robche
Vista does not have a completely rewritten kernel. The kernel codebase for Vista (as well as XP) goes back to NT. Some parts of the kernel may have been tweaked/rewritten, but probably a very small proportion -- most of Vista's new features are just additions to Window's existing infrastructure, not fundamental changes to the OS. - 3Den, on 10/12/2007, -10/+58Microsoft ALWAYS promises big, then ditches most of the features before launch.
Here's how it works.
1) Microsoft sees competitors offering things that windows doesn't have
2) Microsoft promises how their next version (2 years out) will have way BETTER features. This keeps people from running to the competition.
3) At release time, MS doesn't actually have half the features, but it doesn't matter, because they kept people from leaving for something else.
4) Goto 1 - drewjoh, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13@ eklitzke:
If you think the kernel changes are "very small", please have a look at channel9.msdn.com and browse around to educate yourself. There are MANY "fundamental changes" to the new OS. - starmanjones, on 10/12/2007, -13/+6>that statement shows how ignorant you really are on the subject. Vista has a completley re-written kernel among
>other things, wise up on the subject before you rant on it.
oh, boy. that makes all the diff. microsoft writes a new kernal and looses it on the world. how bad will that crash and burn. it took... what... 20 years to get rid of the BSoD? i was just getting used to it not crashing. - mac444, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21Not one post in this thread has yet been completely accurate in describing the Windows Vista kernel. It is actually based off the Windows Server 2003 kernel, as is Windows XP 64-bit Edition. This kernel itself is an evolution of the NT kernel (Windows NT, 2k, and XP). Thus, the starting point for the Vista kernel is not XP but Windows Server 2003.
Also, to the several people who said the kernel is completely re-written, they are incorrect. A completely new version of the Windows kernel while maintaining the level of compatibility of the current Vista is simply impossible. At best, Microsoft would need to use a new version of Virtual PC to provide a way of running the older windows, including the old kernel, to run older software. This would work like the Classic (Mac OS 9.2.2) Environment in Mac OS X for PPC.
These comments of the kernel being completely written show a lack of understanding of the magnitude of such a statement. - lexbaby, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7"Microsoft have ditched so many features they promised it is really starting to annoy me"
I agree. Also they go back and forth. For example, WinFS is back in!
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winfs_preview.asp - Takumi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"For example, WinFS is back in!" lexbaby
Oh really, well then thats not as much of a dissapointment. But don't hold out on it being included! lol - mgrasso, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0In project management, there are 3 main variables
- Cost (development time)
- Quality (bugs)
- Specifications (features).
You can only (try to) control 2 of these variables. If your product needs to deliver on a certain date and quality is a high priority, then the delivered feature set may or may not be complete. If you desire high quality and a complete feature set, then you can't have a firm delivery date. If you need a complete feature set by a certain date, then quality may suffer. - sneeka2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1mgrasso:
So...
- Vista doesn't have all the promised features.
- Vista is horribly late.
- Vista will most certainly have a lot of bugs (hey, we're talking 'bout MS here).
What was that talk about 2 out of 3 things again...?
- soundboy64, on 10/12/2007, -17/+18They're retarded, why not just make it so if the computer can do EFI it boots via EFI, if it can't then it boots via bios. Stupid Microsoft.
- wilsonics, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8They probably can't do the kernel work required to boot via both EFI and BIOS (your choice of course) and still make launch date....which is sometime 2008, right? ;) I read in the comments of the article that the EFI support will be released in a future version, around the time when longhorn server is released.....i really think they are shooting themselves in the foot with this one.
- kwojniak, on 10/12/2007, -22/+13While it's a disappointment that Vista will not have EFI support, I'd much rather use a product like VMware
http:/www.vmware.com/- hardran3, on 10/12/2007, -13/+9I totally agree. I would rather run windows in a virtual machine under OS X rather than dual boot. Do it now with VPC and Win2K on an iBook 1.2 GHz. It is slow but it works.
- Misos, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15Dude, the ONLY advantage Windows has over OS X and Linux is that it has infintely wider support for games. Try running any modern game in XP through VMWare or Qemu, it's going to run like crap. Aside to games, everything else that can be done in Windows can be done in OS X or *nix.
- r3zonance, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Windows doesn't have wider support for games. Saying it does is like saying that "gaming" is an OS feature, which it isn't!
Games developers widely support Windows. Now that's a completely different statement. - Misos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Windows doesn't have wider support for games. Saying it does is like saying that "gaming" is an OS feature, which it isn't!
Games developers widely support Windows. Now that's a completely different statement."
Boils down to the same thing: want to play brand new games as they're released? Need to install Windows."
Perhaps now that OS X is on Intel, Cedega can be ported to OS X and Intel Mac users won't need to install Windows even if it does ever natively support EFI.
- TheJenks, on 10/12/2007, -12/+13Thats would have been one reason i got Vista, im planning on moving from PC to a mac this year, guess it will be completely without windows then, oh well.
- Takumi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Exactly my position, I am planning a move to mac and that doesn't make it any better
- Threephaserebel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've already moved from Windows to Mac and I was hoping to have Vista to run some older Windows software that I have and still may use (since dual booting XP on the Mactels doesn't seem to be working). I guess I'll just have to wait until Darwine actually works...
- rkwesq, on 10/12/2007, -39/+7M$ killed Kenny !!! You Bastards!!!
- bpinard, on 10/12/2007, -10/+19Um, wtf?
This is actually INHIBITING technology.- r3zonance, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1It's inhibiting INNOVATION, which MS are (allgedly) all for (I'd call it theft myself).
- berean, on 10/12/2007, -24/+24Not quite a bombshell. Won't affect the VAST majority of Windows users. But, you know, good spin, submitter. Good spin. O'Reilly would be proud.
- michaelstone, on 10/12/2007, -21/+24I see no spin at all.They've said they would support EFI, now they're not. This angers Intel Mac users. Please explain spin.
- berean, on 10/12/2007, -29/+13It's spin because that's what it is. Spin. Upsetting some people doesn't make it a bombshell. It's not nearly as big of a deal as the headline makes it seem. The headline is meant to convey meaning which the facts do not support. The headline is an exaggeration. The headline is meant to manipulate.
Sorry, I clicked the wrong thumb next to your comment. I meant to -digg, but I hit +digg. I'll do better next time. - mabino, on 10/12/2007, -6/+51Actually, I beg to differ. This screws a lot of people, Mac community be damned. Thus, its a bombshell. From Wikipedia on EFI:
"EFI allows vendors to create operating system-independent device drivers."
Sorry vendors!
"With the EFI model, however, manufacturers will be free to write their own OS-independent hardware drivers which can be included within the device itself and can be directly used by modern operating systems."
Sorry users! Keep downloadin' oodles of drivers from scattered support sites!
"EFI is one of the pieces of the framework necessary to implement Trusted Computing."
Sorry... ah, Microsoft? Weren't you all into Trusted Computing? - mabino, on 10/12/2007, -26/+4(That edit timer for posts sure does suck.)
- wilsonics, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6reply to mabino, because i agree with you:
"With the EFI model, however, manufacturers will be free to write their own OS-independent hardware drivers which can be included within the device itself and can be directly used by modern operating systems."
This makes the assumption that Microsoft makes a "Modern" operating system. By not supporting EFI...totally unlike the *nixes and Mac OSX, they are really sealing their own coffin. I believe that EFI would be a HUGE relief to everyone....just think...connect to internet with (insert favorite operating system here) and it updates all your system drivers for you at your next reboot!
Nice move Microsoft....I'm switching to OSX.
- Mwd500, on 10/12/2007, -13/+43Vista is actually driving me toward using a mac more and more.
- Toshibi, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14No kidding.
I use an XP box...but you know, I'm getting so sick of MS and it's crap....
I declared that my next computer will be a Mac and I'm sticking to it. I think I'll turn this one into a Linux box. Take that Gates! - MikhoohkiM, on 10/12/2007, -12/+2I keep saying vista will pass OS X don't worry it will, but i can't help you guy here, sorry
- DaffyDuck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I had the same thought as you guys. I now happily use a MacBook Pro. Of course, I still have a desktop with Windows and use Windows at work but I love using my new Mac.
- QuantaS, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I totally agree
I believe that a lot of college bound teens will be choosing Mac over windows this summer
I for one am - Paradox183, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Why would an upcoming OS drive you away from your _current_ OS? You don't currently use Vista. If you don't want to use it, don't buy it and stay with whatever you've got, assuming it works well enough. XP will be supported until 2011.
- Toshibi, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14No kidding.
- ldenman, on 10/12/2007, -37/+25lol...windows...what a joke.
- killerklown, on 10/12/2007, -17/+30I agree it is a joke
20 years in the unix industry and I still refuse to use any version of windows
- killerklown, on 10/12/2007, -17/+30I agree it is a joke
- bpinard, on 10/12/2007, -18/+17I'm going to buy an Intel Mac Mini as soon as they have some more time to work any bugs out.
- cameo8705, on 10/12/2007, -19/+20You realize that there have been no bugs on the intel Macs right?
- eklitzke, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9@cameo8705
What are you talking about? The new Core Duo architecture is far from perfect: http://www.maconintel.com/news.php?article=111 - Rhywun, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2My new MacIntel crashes all the time. Not very happy about that, but hoping that Apple will address the issue soon.
- WiseWeasel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2My Macbook hasn't crashed once, though a few apps seem to randomly quit at times... You might try repairing the permissions on your MacOS X drive using Disk Utility (in your Utilities folder, in your Applications). That's always a good idea before and after OS updates...
- chadseld, on 10/12/2007, -9/+23LOL!! I was just joking about this happening. They dropped all the other cool/advanced features... I can't for the life of me figure out why MS suddenly has difficulty writing software. Did all the good coders leave?? Is there something in the water?
- bpinard, on 10/12/2007, -11/+30No, but Google offers free snacks!
:P - Agret, on 10/12/2007, -11/+14"Did all the good coders leave??"
Since when did Microsoft have any good coders? =P
- bpinard, on 10/12/2007, -11/+30No, but Google offers free snacks!
- sanmarcos, on 10/12/2007, -2/+28For those who do not know what the frak EFI is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretar%C3%ADa_de_Inteligencia- sanmarcos, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19Sorry meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIOS after EFI.
- Bananas21ca, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13EFI is awsome! OS-Independent drivers! w00t! One more step up for linux.
- ToeCheese, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7One more step up for linux is right which is a good reason for Microsoft not to support it.
- derekknight, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10An Apple bombshell would be $99 box copy of 10.5 Leopard that runs on any hardware that supports EFI.
Guys, this is not that big a deal. If you want to run Windows you will be able to do it using virtual PC. And since there is no heavy translation to another processor, it should be pretty spunky.- thekurst, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Which might very well be possible considering the "OS Independent drivers" what a nifty idea
- ZachPruckowski, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0VPC and VMWare without hardware graphics support will blow, because even the lowest level of Vista needs a decent graphics card. So even without the processor issue, and even without the Aero Glass crap, you're still going to have speed issues without hardware support.
- garyinthehouse, on 10/12/2007, -9/+9Wow this is a bombshell....oh well I switched to mac when I started college this year. I always had support for Vista (Longhorn) in its stages...(the alpha stages...this was before Sasser and MyBlast hit the pc's). Once those security holes were uncovered...Microsoft completley halted Longhorn for about a good year. **Sigh** I had good support for longhorn and now everything microsoft promised, isnt going to be in it...WinFS anyone? EFI? The Aero User Interface (Aero is in Vista, but its nothing like the concepts that they had when they were intending to develp it)
Oh well microsoft, well see what the future holds....Lest hope the version of windows AFTER Vista bears some resemblence of what Vista was going to be...
Gary - adml_shake, on 10/12/2007, -14/+12Who cares? I want the Mac OS on my windows box, not the other way around.
- thetron, on 10/12/2007, -16/+12It's kind of interesting. Maybe Apple has emailed Gates and the email would sort go like this
"Hey Bill. Could you do us another favor again? With EFI support for vista, Apple would like you not to have EFI support.
KTHBYE!
PS. I hope you got the money i sent you. That you gave me in 97-99
Your truely
Steve Jobs
Apple"- ldenman, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16I think Steve Jobs would know how to spell correctly...
- hardran3, on 10/12/2007, -4/+37He doesn't have to. OS X has built in system wide spell checking.
- robbh66, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Unlikely. If anything Apple wants windows users to be able to boot to an macintel- gives us reason to get one. Not being able to seriously hurts my reasons to get one. Just my opinion.
- wilsonics, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2exactly....Apple is just as much a Hardware company as it is a Software comany. Sure it would be great for Apple for the users to ONLY run OSX, but that's not possible...windows is the industry standard (sadly), and it would be very helpful to be able to dual boot into windows for a guy like me (a soon to be switcher). But, you still need that windows until microsoft finally falls under the wheels of Apple (or somebody else, who knows?). Apple sure has no problem selling their hardware to anyone at a premium price...and it looks damn nice ;)
- Sturmur, on 10/12/2007, -28/+12Oh poor Mac users, boohoo. Go back to your 'superior' OSX expirence. Why would you want Vista anyways?
- BlueFiberOp, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20Games and crucial applications that might not be available on OS X. Grow up, will you? There are dual OS users that are not necessarily fanboys.
- ZenPirate, on 10/12/2007, -15/+6 Because they think they'll be able to play Windows games on those minis with the GMA 950 graphics
..I joke... I joke - chadseld, on 10/12/2007, -14/+1Sure thing boss
- SpeedyG, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5You all may now start your stopwatches on how long it takes for such a hurdle to be overcome, and the betting is open on how long before a workaround exists.
- ToeCheese, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I think that it will take a month after it's release so put me down for 10/25/2008
- hardran3, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1HA!
- DJMac317, on 10/12/2007, -24/+8HA, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
On my God, that is fantastic. So Microsoft will continue to live in the past by still using BIOS. Even though Intel is moving its chipsets to EFI. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
(sarcasm), Oh no, I guess I won't be booting Windows on a MacIntel. Oh, woe with me, what ever shall I do. Oh, and I guess I won't be moving forward with technology since Microsoft will only support a 20 year old firmware. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Whew! Time for a smoke.- cameo8705, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Windows and intel haven't had that great of a relationship in the past...this definately signals a separation of the two...
- netherbound, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6AMD as well as other hardware makers are backing EFI so it's not only Intel that is backing it.
Microsoft is going to try and hold the PC industry hostage to BIOS.
- Sal42, on 10/12/2007, -11/+6boo! c'mon microsoft! did you run out of other things to cut so now you decided hardware support was a good area to skimp on! double boo!
- replica, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14EFI is one of the pieces of the framework necessary to implement Trusted Computing. So, I am glad it is gone.
- wilsonics, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5But you have to realize that this could also hold back many areas of computing that we haven't even dreamed of yet....Microsoft is, as always, holding the industry back. I don't like trusted computing either, but i'm sure you can appreciate the next generation of computing. BIOS is dead, has been for many many years. EFI is the next wave ;) and also, trusted computing model can be on or off, at the computer makers discretion. (i could be wrong on that last part, but i still believe that efi is the way to go)
- gotamd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2To say that the BIOS is dead is ridiculous. It sure is old, but it isn't dead. The vast majority of computers today use it, as well as new computers being sold now and in the near future. Saying that the BIOS is dead is like saying that Unix is dead since it's old and there are now OS's that are similar but newer (such as Linux).
- JamesGHill, on 10/12/2007, -10/+7One more bit of proof that M$ and Apple are working hand in hand.
- sanmarcos, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4That is an interesting theory (Lost dixit).
Could Apple and Microsoft have made a secret deal with the whole Intel switch, stating that both companies wont interfere with the other's marketshare in their respective platforms?
By marketshare I mean aggresively diving in into their plattform. - tenchi71, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4*I say with tinfoil hat firmly in place*
Microsoft and Apple?? Nah....
I think it's Microsoft and Dell and AMD and many other system vendors... think about it...
*I now remove my funny, shiny hat*
- sanmarcos, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4That is an interesting theory (Lost dixit).
- EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6This baffles me. I wonder if this could be a preemptive move by MS to keep OSX from running on Windows PCs and vice versa. Not only could it make the hardware more compatible it could potentially make device drivers more compatible as well. EFI is not a new technology, and I can't imagine that implementing support is that difficult so it seems like an intentional move. Oh well, nothing to get too worked up about I guess *sigh*.
- MrSpontaneous, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Couple things...
"Microsoft revealed today that it will not support EFI booting for Windows Vista on its launch."
Note the 'on its launch' part. It may be in a vista SP further down the road, who knows...
It's a shame Microsoft and Apple don't work together to get windows booting on a Mac, both sides would benefit, in my opinion. Apple would get its hardware out there and people trying out OS X, and windows would sell more licenses.
I'd rather dual boot than use vmware because I'd use windows for gaming...
In fact, unless Vista or XP can boot on a mactel, I won't be switching to apple anytime soon. I don't believe that I am in the majority with this opinion, but it's based on what I need.- cameo8705, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6The article actually states that EFI will be supported in Longhorn Server, but who knows when that'll come out...
- hypercube33, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Honestly, how does this have anything to do with Crapintoshes or Linsticks? Windblows wont support this crappy, yet seemingly smart technology.
It's like when Microsoft put out Win2k, nothing had drivers. Nothing I had (minus the "native generic support" for some things existed. No OpenGL for me!) came with either support or Win2k drivers for months, and even then they took a few more months to perfect, if you'd call it that.
Embedding drivers is just plain wrong these days, since companies can't get-it-right from the get go anymore.
Perhaps by version 10, it might work "98% of the way."
And can anyone tell me what has EFI and more importantly, what supports it (what hardware has embedded drivers?!)
Quit your whining, everyone! I'm negatively digging anyone who complains about anything other than EFI in Vista directly, since it DOES NOT relate to this article.
And seriously, Linux is pre NT3. NT3 will run on more PCs than most distributions, and support far more hardware, and is easier to use (especially when it comes to installing software, for instance.)
Thanks,
-stop emo tears
- Darkspyder86, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Of Course not how else would they be able to sell Virtual PC 8
- hardran3, on 10/12/2007, -5/+111. Make Vista not boot on intel Macs
2. Release VPC8
3. ?
4. Profit - wilsonics, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I completely agree! I salute your logic, now we know for sure what microsoft is up to ;)
- hardran3, on 10/12/2007, -5/+111. Make Vista not boot on intel Macs
- dbrodbeck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12I just ordered a Mac Book Pro. I did not order it so I could use Vista. That said, I imagine some did.....
- Bandito, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I did. Well I didn't order it JUST so I could run Windows on it, but the thought of eventually being able to add Windows to my Mac OSX system down the line was a big plus. This way I could boot into WIndows for work during the day and have my OSX for personal use afterwards.
It's a shame. Hopefully VMWare will start supporting Macs.
- Bandito, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I did. Well I didn't order it JUST so I could run Windows on it, but the thought of eventually being able to add Windows to my Mac OSX system down the line was a big plus. This way I could boot into WIndows for work during the day and have my OSX for personal use afterwards.
- pope7, on 10/12/2007, -15/+5Spelling Microsoft M$ is a surefire way to get your comment ignored. I love you kiddies.
- astrosmash, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Well, I guess I'm not buying Vista, then. No big loss.
But seriously, why would Microsoft want Apple to sell more Macs?- astrosmash, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Who cares if they selling more licenses for windows?"
They do, obviously, because they're not supporting Apple hardware.
- astrosmash, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Who cares if they selling more licenses for windows?"
- MySchizoBuddy, on 10/12/2007, -10/+3what? the dual core in Mactels r 32 bit. huh? so we went from 64 bit dual core powerpc to 32 bit ones
- danwarne, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0I'm pretty sure that PowerPC G4/G5s were only 64-bit for the Altivec processing. I believe it was one of those cases where Apple could get away with marketing a product as '64 bit' but it wasn't actually 64-bit through and through. I could be completely wrong though -- I'm hazy on this.
- r3zonance, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@danwarne
BTW, the G4 was a 32-bit chip, not 64-bit. Only he G5's were 64-bit. - coolbru, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Both a bit wrong. G5 is full-on 64-bit in every way. G4 is 64-bit for Altivec, 32-bit otherwise. Dropping from 64-bit to 32 in the iMac is not that big a deal - It's not like you could stick 16Gb+ RAM in it anyway. Desktops are a different matter, which is why Apple needs Conroe, and why the G5 is still a great chip in current machines.
- oepapel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Both a bit wrong. G5 is full-on 64-bit in every way. G4 is 64-bit for Altivec, 32-bit otherwise. "
True. But you forgot the most important fact: OS/X is only a 32 bit OS (with limited support for running a 64-bit process). Most of the Cocoa UI is 32 bit only. Same with Carbon. All GUI apps started as 32 bit processes. They could optionally launch additional processes (which could be 64 bit) and communicate through an IPC mechanism. Leopard was going to be the first version of OS/X that was full 64 bit. That may not occur now. That doesn't mean that they'll stop working on it (since the Intel dual cores will eventually be 64 bit) but they just won't release it.
- RocketMike, on 10/12/2007, -11/+11Why the hell would you want to put Windows on a Mac?
A computer without Windows is like a chocolate cake without mustard.- astrosmash, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Many of us who live in the real world need to work with software that runs only on Windows. Either way, my iBook is my primary computing device, and OS X my primary OS, but if I could run Windows on the same machine then I could ditch my crappy old PC once and for all.
- Hanthus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Portuguese / Brazilian : http://www.htk.com.br/noticia.php?noticia=218
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http://www.htk.com.br/ - SilentBobSC, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Not suprising, could you imagine the cries of Antiust if MS released to the mac platform... Interesting wording though, not at launch... maybe down the line when it's more strategic?
- danwarne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well those cries of antitrust would be pretty misguided wouldn't they. A company is only guilty of antitrust violations if it has abused its market power to reduce competition in a market segment. I can't see how Microsoft introducing a new _option_ for Mac users would constitute antitrust in any way at all. Unless Microsoft somehow coerced Mac resellers to preinstall Vista, or something... none of which is remotely likely...
- drbroccoli, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Well, it's a dead end for Microsoft.
Or maybe, on the release date, they will jump up and say they were just kidding. Just speculation... - iobuffa, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced"
- astrosmash, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Yes, only time will tell how the teeming masses of Mac users will deal with this brutal new reality of the Windows-less Mac.
We're in uncharted territory here, people. Buckle up. - hardran3, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4In other news, Mercedez-Benz owners are livid because of the inability to put a Kia engine in their new cars. More after the break.
- astrosmash, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Yes, only time will tell how the teeming masses of Mac users will deal with this brutal new reality of the Windows-less Mac.
- Petronski, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2Stunning.
- vh1`, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2"Ritz admitted that EFI support won't be seen in any version of Windows /until/ the release of Longhorn Server"
"Microsoft revealed today that it will not support EFI booting for Windows Vista /on its launch/."
"Microsoft says people will have to /wait/ for an unspecified 'subsequent release of Windows client'"
bombshell is where?
and also (not trying to be a dick), what fraction of computers have EFI?- wilsonics, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3What fraction of computers have EFI?
From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface
"Intel currently offers PC motherboards supporting EFI. All Intel's 945-chipset boards support EFI, it is just disabled. However, Microsoft Windows and other BIOS Operating Systems continue to run due to a compatibility layer."
So, it seems like a lot....just gotta find one that's not EFI disabled....good luck ;) also, there is a gateway htpc that was released that used efi that is in that article.
- wilsonics, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3What fraction of computers have EFI?
- chembro84, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I know that they can get linux to boot off of EFI, so just watch, there will be a distro that boots off EFI, then emulates BIOS and bam we get Vista (or XP for that matter) booting!
- robbh66, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4This is no surprise. I was waiting for confirmation I can boot Vista before I get a MacBook Pro. NOw that I cant, I probably wont get one. Me (and others like me) not getting vista on a mac is me not trying OSX- and possibly making the "switch"
- r3zonance, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1That's a dumb argument. If you were going to get a Macbook Pro and install Vista on it, you weren't gonna try OSX were you really, as you aren't buying on cos you can't put Vista on it.
BTW, all the other idiots using that argument of trying OSX, there's the places called "Apple Stores" where you can go TRY OS X, probably quite a lot of other stores too.
Keep your narrow-mindedness on Windows. - danwarne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't think it's a dumb point of view. I have a late model PowerBook G4 that I am reasonably happy with in terms of its OS X performance. I was foaming at the mouth at the thought of buying a MacBook Pro which I could dual-boot Windows on (allowing me to use it as a Mac at home and a PC at work) but now I won't be upgrading to an Intel Mac until (a) Apple moves to 64 bit processors and (b) Microsoft releases the update to Vista that will allow it to boot on Macs. By the way, none of this is because I like Windows - I really DON'T - but there are two applications I can only run on Windows at work: an editorial management application (I work at a magazine) and Microsoft Outlook. The first is kinda unavoidable.. most large workplaces have some sort of custom-app, while the latter is annoying: there is simply no good Exchange-server client for Mac.
- astrosmash, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Precisely. Microsoft doesn't want you to buy a Mac, so they don't support it.
- r3zonance, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1That's a dumb argument. If you were going to get a Macbook Pro and install Vista on it, you weren't gonna try OSX were you really, as you aren't buying on cos you can't put Vista on it.
- jon.poeschek, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Perhaps Vista 64-bit will support EFI.....
- danwarne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2No, Microsoft specifically said in the presentation that the ONLY version of Windows that will support EFI booting is Longhorn Server. NO client version of Windows, 64 bit included, will boot on an EFI system, until a 'future release' of Windows.
- soundman414, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4who do you know today that has an x86 chipset supporting EFI? i think no one. i believe they were justified in making the call but to not support it later down the road or 32bit cpu's is a dumb idea.
- danwarne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Microsoft did say they would support it down the road, in a future release of Windows. Just not in the initial release of Windows Vista. I asked the question during the presentation: would it be a service pack or an altogether new version of Windows, and the response was along the lines of, "well that's really a marketing question... whether it's called a service pack or something else."
Windows Vista ME, anyone? :-) - r3zonance, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4And the reason nobody has them (EFI) is because MS doesn't support them. The point is everyone's machines should have EFI, but because of MS they don't. Now that's a bad place to be as MS is (pretty much) dictating MoBo/hardware manufacturers businesses, because MS won't support the features. If they don't support the features, why waste time/money putting the features in as they are (sadly) 92% of the market.
They are holding back technology, abusing their market position to keep the stranglehold they have over the whole market.
If drivers can be OS independant as a result of using EFI, then MS would stand to lose billions from their "Designed For Windows..." and other certification programs. Not to mention they would have to probably do a lot of reworking to DirectX and whatever the name is for their GDI replacement.
That's why they don't want consumer level EFI. Server is fine cos they tend to only have certain limited video/audio configurations usual from on-board chips. - seachicken, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0> They are holding back technology, abusing their market position to keep the stranglehold they have over the whole market.
... and OS independent drivers. That can't be good for MS's position. Other OS's like linux would gain a lot of hardware support if EFI were adopted.
- danwarne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Microsoft did say they would support it down the road, in a future release of Windows. Just not in the initial release of Windows Vista. I asked the question during the presentation: would it be a service pack or an altogether new version of Windows, and the response was along the lines of, "well that's really a marketing question... whether it's called a service pack or something else."
- gamerzworld, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3Dont worry MAC guys! I bet Microsoft is working on a version that will be like $200 or $300 that will have EFI support.
- FishyJoe, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6A lot of people upgraded to XP because 98 was really a crash happy pile of crap. XP was a significant improvement over 98. But Vista just doesn't seem to be a big jump for the average user. XP is relatively stable so I just don't see people jumping ship like they did from 98.
- MagisterJoe, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Yeah, and hopefully they managed to avoid that piece of ***** ME. I know we didn't (stupid Dad)
- green67, on 10/12/2007, -5/+0uh oh....looks like Uncle Steve and Uncle Bill are having a d!ck measuring contest again.....yawn....hmmm..I wonder if our ol' buddy Maxxus has anything to say....will he hack Vista to run on Mactels?........hmmm
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