What is Digg?204 Comments
- inactive, on 07/24/2008, -15/+113Mac users hear the same damn thing every year. The flood gates are always on the verge of being opened. I just roll over in my bed and hit snooze.
2003
"The truth is that the Mac OS is just as vulnerable as Microsoft Windows."—Lance Ulanoff, Security, IT Hub.
2004
"Windows is more secure than you think, and Mac OS X is worse than you ever imagined."—By Matthew Broersma, Techworld
2005
"The naming of Apple's Mac OS X to the list of latest warning from security experts to users that Apple's operating system is not immune to threats."—Robert Lemos, Security Focus
"Attacks on Apple's OS X operating system, thought by many who use the Mac to be virtually immune from hackers, are on the rise, according to a report from Symantec, an anti-virus software vendor."—Wired
2006
"Several security researchers have predicted that 2006 will be the year Mac OS X loses its image as a "safe" operating system."—Matthew Broersma, Techworld
"Anti-virus software firm McAfee has identified Mac OS X as a growing target for malware attacks"—John Leyden, The Register.
2007
"There will be a significant rise in virus attacks on both the Mac and open-source platforms, according to renowned security expert, Eugene Kaspersky."—Barry Collins, PC Pro
"After years of relative safety in obscurity, the Apple Mac is becoming an increasingly tempting target for malicious computer hackers, according to a new report published this week."—Kevin Allison, Financial Times
The reality is that the era of serene isolation is ending, partly because of technical changes that increase a Mac's vulnerability to infected documents and even programs—originally created on a PC."—James Fallow, The Atlantic
We've had this constant fear mongering every year since 2003 and yet, no one has been able to create a REAL virus for OS X. And when I say real, I mean, malicious code that can copy itself and infect a computer without permission or knowledge of the user. If you're stupid enough to download a trojan and open it, after ignoring a warning built into Leopard, which tags files downloaded over the internet, then you deserve to get infected with something like this, but it doesn't mean OS X is any less secure than it's always been and will continue to be for the near future. - FuryOfThor, on 07/23/2008, -21/+99It was inevitable. Said it before, and I'll say it again: while I never wish malware on anyone, it's nice knowing that Mac users won't continue to think they're somehow invulnerable to attack.
- zorlok, on 07/23/2008, -9/+52So where is the malware?
- ksgant, on 07/24/2008, -4/+40This is a trojan...which means the user has to actually be a part of it loading onto your system.
A trojan can attack any system really. I could write a script that you could run on the most secure OS available that could totally compromise your system if it requires you to type in your root password to "install" it. The same thing could happen to Windows, Linux, BSD etc etc etc. This isn't a virus. This isn't spyware. It's a trojan.
A virus takes advantage of a vulnerable OS. A trojan takes advantage of a vulnerable user. - hockeyfighter09, on 07/24/2008, -1/+36Ive been hearing about this forever now
- UKsHaDoW, on 07/24/2008, -5/+36"Trojan, which means users must take action to get it onto their computers"
Which probably means you have to enter your password to install, which he fails to mention. - MacParrot, on 07/24/2008, -2/+32Both Macs and Windows are pretty secure these days, so the ***** who make this stuff have moved on to social engineering. Getting us to infect ourselves, bypassing passwords and other forms of security. Apple, Microsoft, and the various Linux distros cannot protect users from acts of their own sheer stupidity. Want to not get infected? DON'T click on dodgy links from porn sites. If you have clicked on what appears to be a legitimate link and afterwords it asks you for your password? Don't enter it.
If you do, please allow me to introduce you to my Nigerian cousin who will make you rich once you supply your banking information, name, and social security number. No, trust me, this is REALLY legit. He contacted me right after I won the Microsoft/ South African world football lottery. - jmpeagle, on 07/24/2008, -1/+23make sure you stick to well known and trusted pornographic institutions
- Murdats, on 07/24/2008, -2/+20probably in the same place the windows malware is, not on the computers of people who know where the power button is.
- MrSkills, on 07/24/2008, -10/+25Which is why the Amiga, which normally had no internet connection and sold less in its entire lifetime than Macs are sold in a year, and offered no financial incentive to make viruses, had no viruses.
No, wait, it had *hundreds*. Yes, the OS was not as secure back then, but on the other hand viruses had to be passed around on floppies and there was no hard disk for them to transfer to!
Market share would explain it if there was simply a 'significant reduction' in viruses. But we're talking about almost *nothing* in nearly a decade of OS X, except perhaps the once-a-year "oh-no-there's-a-trojan-but-oh-look-it-never-affected-anyone" thing.
In summary: Security via obscurity requires obscurity. - Zippo, on 07/24/2008, -4/+19They've been saying this stuff for years and Mac has yet to effected by a real virus. I'll believe it when I see it.
- inactive, on 07/24/2008, -2/+14And I run a PC without anything, and have for over a decade.
All it takes is to not be a retard. - Vich, on 07/24/2008, -14/+26Yeah, my uncle who's crazy big on Macs is always pulling that line "Macs don't get viruses/spyware/malware/unwanted pregnancies"
I'm like "that's because from a virus/spyware/malware/pregnancy-writer perspective Macs aren't worth the effort given the small market share"
So yeah, give it some time. - aDJsavedmylife, on 07/24/2008, -17/+29This is why digg is ***** now.
All the accurate, factual and correct posts have been dugg down (MrSkills and nathanww)
Whereas the idiotic, un factually backed up posts have been dugg up (Vich).
OS X is a Unix (BSD) based OS, that doesn't mean it's totally 100% secure (nothing is).
freeBSD is a very, very, very secure OS infact Linus Torvalds called the BSD crowd a bunch of 'Masturbating monkeys' for beng TOO security conscience.
I'm not saying Macs are invincible, and Macs don't break.
But Macs ARE more secure than Windows PC. Macs do (in my experience) break less than PCs.
Where I work the Macs almost never, ever, ever need any attention. They just sit there and work. In fact if we were all mac network, there'd be about 10% of the amount of jobs because most of the IT departments time is spent fixing Windows machines.
No doubt this comment will be dugg down by a bunch of 13 year old gamers who think they're l33t because they can change the ram on their DELL machine. Sadly: almost all the real tech crowd on Digg have left since it's now rampant with the aforementioned 13 year olds.
One word for why Windows sucks: Command line, if you don't understand why: you know nothing about tech or operating systems. Pick up a Unix manual and stop dreaming about it. You won't regret it.
End of rant. - DestroyFascism, on 07/24/2008, -0/+11Symantec, enjoying the free ride since 1993..
- inactive, on 07/24/2008, -4/+15Off topic but I'm still trying to figure out how 10 million macs a year grew to an 8.5% market share, down here most folks upgrade after 3-4 years. With those figures they suggest people are hanging on to them for 10 years plus even when taking resale into account?
Now be a good lad and install this keystroke.dmg, it turns your imac 20 into a pro! - colincornaby, on 07/24/2008, -4/+14The Remote Desktop security hole is a horrible horrible bug that needs to be fixed immediately. That said, the rest of the OS is pretty gosh darn secure.
I run 3 Macs without a firewall, or without antivirus. So far, absolutely nothing has happened to them. Maybe they'll get a virus someday, it's possible I'll pick up a trojan somewhere. But I doubt something will got shot across the internet to my machine and infect it. There's not much one can do about trojans, but I feel pretty secure from viruses breaking down the front door. - draculthemad, on 07/24/2008, -3/+13It is? First I've heard the term "Trojan Virus" and ive only worked in IT/Security for the last decade.
edit: let me be more specific.
I have never heard the two conflated as you suggest.
ksgant's mention is consistent, theres always a distinction between the two.
A Virus spreads itself through some method.
A Trojan implies the whole deception of the user thing. See the reference to the incident at Troy...
"Worm" can be ambiguous ( like melissa iirc) , but Trojan and Virus are not. - redwallhp, on 07/24/2008, -1/+11Mac pulls out his taser and zaps the malware, and punts the malware over to the PC.
- paulaust, on 07/24/2008, -2/+12I support Mac for my company and have to argue with security people this same argument all the time. From my point of view, I will never be able to win. The security folks will continue to say that the Mac platform will be exploited any day now. They will continue to say that until they die. Its just their job. If they didn't keep making that argument, we would have no need for them.
- Gantos, on 07/24/2008, -5/+15"Many of the people who are now using Macs are people who don't learn from their mistakes."
Learning from my mistakes is EXACTLY WHY I'm using a Mac! - inactive, on 07/24/2008, -2/+11Yes, but do keep in mind they can disguise it as something else. These are n00bs we're talking about.
- Murdats, on 07/24/2008, -1/+10yes but they are trojans, their namesake implies that they are disguised as a non-hostile program.
- CreativeGuy, on 07/24/2008, -4/+13Odd. In my experience, I've found that Mac users generally know 10 times as much about their machine than the average Windows user. Not you, not your IT people, not the people you work with... the AVERAGE Windows user is mostly the people who don't know what Firefox is, wouldn't know how to get it, let alone install it, and generally have a difficult time doing anything at all outside of checking email and using Google.
- overbyte, on 07/24/2008, -1/+9the problem is that the people that are used for quotes in articles like this (in this case Graham Cluley, Sophos) are always sponsored or outright employed by the companies that sell software to combat these things and as such, they have no credibility.
If you want to backup your article, you need to find quotes from independent third parties. - jman583, on 07/24/2008, -1/+9At my school (which is about 80% mac users) half of the students don't even know how to install programs.
- scubaninja, on 07/24/2008, -0/+8Mac OS X doesn't have a single TCP/IP port listening by default. Contrast this with Windows (and even Linux), which typically ship with several TCP/IP services listening. If you aren't behind a firewall or NAT, those services are thus listening on the public internet. Windows, especially, has all kinds of stuff listening by default and makes it hard to turn off, at least circa Windows 2000. I think with XP SP2 and Windows Server 2003 they got smarter about it.
- SillyRabbits, on 07/24/2008, -7/+15From the article: "These security-clueless folks, I wrote, are now bringing those bad habits to the Macintosh platform"
Blaming previous windows owners for bringing their bad security habits to Macintosh? Please, I've never seen worse security habits than from the lifelong Mac users that believe their system is invincible. - netdroid9, on 07/24/2008, -4/+12What's wrong with MAC addresses? Oh, Mac, as in the line of computers sold by Apple, right >.>....
- inactive, on 07/24/2008, -0/+8indeed, if osx is secure then its secure regardless of the habits of the users. If it takes the user to make it secure against threats, then the same could be said for windows, dont fix the system, replace the users.
It is funny though that someone would blame windows for osx security problems. - MacParrot, on 07/24/2008, -0/+7Any chance we can agree that average computer user of any OS (with the possible exception of older Linux users who HAD to know more to get things going on earlier distros) are idiots that know little about their computers?
To assert that the basic user of any OS is more likely to know what they're doing with either hardware or software is ludicrous - mediaphile, on 07/24/2008, -1/+8@SSUK:
That's the difference, though. You can't just click on some jpg.exe on a Mac and have it install malware like it can on Windows. As described in the article, the only malware for Macs are Trojans, and in order to gain access to the core operating system, you need to give it root access by entering your password. It's true this can happen while installing seemingly legitimate software, but that's the definition of a Trojan.
So as ksgant demonstrated, the distinction between Trojan and virus is important. Any system can be susceptible to a Trojan. Macs are, so far, not susceptible to any virus. - MacParrot, on 07/24/2008, -1/+8I don't know about ten years, but I do wait about 4-6 years before upgrading. Since I don't play a lot of games (and therefore don't typically need new processors or graphics cards every year), my machines work just fine for what I use them for
- magamiako, on 07/24/2008, -3/+10FYI, this is generally how most Windows trojans work.
- pedronym, on 07/24/2008, -1/+8Security through obscurity makes no sense.
To those who say that hackers aren't interested in infecting Mac OS X because the platform is not big enough think about this:
Who would you rather be? the 1,000,000th guy who wrote a widespread virus for Windows or the NUMBER ONE to write a virus for Mac's? The guy who does it for the first time will go straight into the hackers community "hall of fame" for sure! Instant recognition!
Seriously, I work with both OS's on a daily basis and I agree that, if you're an experienced computer user and you know your way around any OS, you can avoid having any hassle at all with Windows (spyware, viruses and etc) and keep it 100% safe.
However, out of the box, to the inexperienced user, Mac's are simply more secure. The proof is in the numbers:
How many widespread virus/trojans/spyware are there for Mac OS X? NONE! - inactive, on 07/24/2008, -2/+9a lot of malware is installed in windows systems as trojans. Worms (self replicating programs) are generally a lower percentage. How many websites have something that claims to be one thing but really is another, such as the javascript install crap that requires someone to click "ok" or the pr0n sites that have you download their "player" ? What about all the other software out there that you install that also includes other programs which leak private data (such as apple's quicktime player bundled with itunes which phones home)?
Even apple disguises their data leakage stuff:
This week at MacWorld, Apple unveiled version 6.0.2 of iTunes, which it simply claimed "includes stability and performance improvements over iTunes 6.0.1." Among these so-called improvements is the Apple iTunes MiniStore -- a localized "recommendation" engine that would look at what you listen to and then suggest additional songs and artists you might like. The MiniStore arrives turned on by default without asking a user's permission first.
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2006/01/itunes-minist ...
So yeah, really, trojans are indeed everywhere, even from the beloved apple. - tama00, on 07/24/2008, -2/+8thats probably the best comment i have read on digg if you did that research yourself.
anyone who diggs you down just wants to support their windows beliefs..
I 100% agree same thing is said about Linux as well. - Natnie, on 07/24/2008, -6/+12Malware huh? Oh yeah, that thing that I don't get on my PC because I know what I'm doing.
- bradleyland, on 07/24/2008, -0/+6Linux users are equally susceptible to trojans. Although, I think that on the whole, anyone who makes an active decision to use Linux is familiar enough with computers that they wouldn't be suckered by a trojan.
- CoaxVex, on 07/24/2008, -2/+8That's just great. A link to an article from a guy who gets his information from an article from the Times Online, who in their turn get their "facts" from a security firm that happens to sell antivirus software for the Mac.
How conveniently orchestrated.
Nothing new here, antivirus vendors will always say there is a huge threat if there is good money to made from it.
What next? Antivirus for open bsd? - MacParrot, on 07/24/2008, -2/+8That again is a trojan horse as it requires the user to accept the download, and then open it. A virus by definition requires no user interaction and does what it does without the user knowing.
No big surprise that the link you supplied is from a company who sells anti-virus software. They just might be a little biased - rimantas, on 07/24/2008, -2/+8Here we go again. OS 8/9 had viruses despite even less market share. There are no viruses in the wild for the OS X (yet).
It is that incomprehensible that OS X _might_ have are more secure architecture? Like user not having administrator rights all the time and services running on dedicated accounts, not with superuser privileges? - Pliep, on 07/24/2008, -1/+7So a guy from a security company that sells security products is telling us Macs are getting more and more vulnerable? Sounds like a hidden agenda to me. Buried inaccurate.
- Kelmon, on 07/24/2008, -0/+5"Mac usage seems to be coupled, in many cases, with a general lack of knowledge concerning software engineering and security issues"
I think you just described most of the computing world, not just Mac users. The best you can normally hope for is that people have heard of viruses and have a virus scanner installed. Beyond that most people have no clue what a "worm" is, or a "trojan", and what software engineering is. Expecting them to do so is both unreasonable and futile. - DaffyDuck, on 07/24/2008, -5/+10I was going to ask that too. When's the first one going to show up?
- Kelmon, on 07/24/2008, -0/+5Yes, you need to worry. The Apple Remote Desktop client is intended for network administrators to log onto your Mac and support it, but the software required for the client to connect to is already installed on both Leopard and (I believe) Tiger.
- cypherz, on 07/24/2008, -2/+7@hwy9nightkidhwy9nightkid
You personally know "most" Mac users? How do people get away with making general statements about "most" users of any platform? It would make just as much sense to say "Most Windows users are ignorant about how to avoid virii and phishing".
If computer users in general were more educated, there wouldn't be so much money to be made with malware. - inactive, on 07/24/2008, -0/+5there are ways around the password request due to the way that it works. There will also be more ways around it over time. The method you described isnt even the only way that existing "bad things" for a mac have been done. Its the easiest, yes, it takes the least skill to do, yes. But its not the only way and it certainly wont become the only way in the future.
I also seem to recall "a sploit a day" for a month which targeted osx. Basically a developer displeased with the attitude of "its not broken so dont even attempt to fix it" decided to release 1 exploit for osx each day for a month to draw awareness that osx isnt magical and does not have magic anti-evil software protections. - inactive, on 07/24/2008, -3/+8When somebody can show me a real instance of somebody getting infected by a virus on OS X, I'll bite. All I've seen so far is fearmongering from security firms over exploits that haven't been seen in the wild and proofs of concept.
- MacParrot, on 07/24/2008, -0/+5There are plenty of Mac users who seem to have a similar attitude about Windows and Bill Gates.
They're asswipes too. -
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