What is Digg?376 Comments
- agrabob, on 10/11/2007, -94/+327I love this:
"But first, let me say to all those people who have ever bought a Packard Bell or eMachines PC and believe that great value in a computer means any model that sells for $600 or less: I agree -- Apple doesn't have an answer for you. In fact, I suggest that you skip this article entirely. You're not going to find anything of interest in it."
He's basically saying: "I'm going to ignore the biggest part of the consumer market and thus perform a half ass cost analysis, which will anger all but Apple zealots. So please dont read this if your not an Apple zealot." - Tsen, on 10/11/2007, -44/+156What I want to know is what the hell they're thinking.
Even if they don't produce a cheap, affordable Mac for the average person, why don't they make one to sell to schools?
The downright CHEAPEST model they've got for schools is $800 bucks a pop, starting price. Hence, my old high school has eight year old fuggin' iFruits in the graphics lab (back from the era when Macs were better at graphics than PCs). Now, since Adobe's been making Photoshop for Windows for a while now, and since Macs are too damn expensive, our school's phasing them out and replacing them with PCs.
So what does Apple have to lose? They can still make a profit selling cheaper computers to schools, and that way they could get kids used to Mac OS X so they're more likely to buy a Mac when they get their own computer later...
But no, Mac's decided it needs to cling to its rich, pretty-boy status, even if it's costing them... - mickeyknoxxx, on 10/11/2007, -13/+124You can get your porn just as fast on either computer.
- Omicron, on 10/11/2007, -9/+111i gotta be honest. i read the first page of this article and none of the rest, but from that first page, i did decide to go to hp.com and see if i could recreate the $2800 MacBook Pro. Here were the results:
Operating System - Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium (32-bit)
Processor - Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo T7500 (2.2GHz/4MB L2Cache)
Display - 17.0" WSXGA+ BrightView Widescreen (1680x1050)
Memory - $50 off upgrade from 1GB (2 Dimm) to 2GB (2 Dimm)!
Graphics Card - 511MB NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GS
Personalization - HP Imprint Finish (Radiance) + Microphone
Networking - Intel(R) PRO/Wireless 4965AGN Network w/Bluetooth
Hard Drive - 160GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
Primary CD/DVD Drive - Super Multi 8X DVD+/-R/RW w/Double Layer Support
Primary Battery - 8 Cell Lithium Ion Battery
From what I can tell, the major differences are 0.2 GHz slower processor (insignificant) but almost twice the vRAM (very significant) and no video camera.
The cost of this "top of the line" HP laptop? $1693.99 over $1000 less than the top of the line MacBook pro
Do some more research next time before you write an article - blaze03, on 10/11/2007, -11/+104Apple users also save tons of money on games.
- Dumbledorito, on 10/11/2007, -7/+80I'm just curious; CAN Mac lower its hardware costs and still remain profitable (at least, as profitable as it is currently)?
And why is their RAM so expensive? What is it fabricated from? Crystallized rays of sunshine coated in anodized fairy dust? - rolf, on 10/11/2007, -25/+96Part of my willingness to cough up a premium is to be mostly free of headaches.
Look, if you have to run antivirus - you are wasting time, as well as Processor cycles - that equates to being slower. Same with running anything maintainence - defragmentation, ad-aware, whatever.
Really low end computers, sub-$500, use low-end hardware which tend to be buggy and models can hit and miss. I know, I had to admin enough of them for friends and family. Sometimes, little stupid things wouldn't work properly, like suspend or sleep or the power button (I kid you not) - how much extra is that in electricity each year?
As someone mentioned mac's cheapest line, the Mac Mini, it is more expensive than a comparable (in power) computer because it uses Laptop components to get it's small form factor.
I use Ubuntu, but I gave my parents Macs. The premium was worth it. These are people who break EVERYTHING in terms of software. I am glad I bought a Mac for them, as I even found my mom scanning (over a wireless network) and emailing pictures the other day - something that would never have happened with a Windows PC without my time/energy and losing some of my sanity along the way.
Sometimes a product is more than a list of features, it is the entire integration that is key. From my experience with Apple the last few years, they have been much better than average - especially with their integrated hardware/software. Don't label me a fanboi, I thought Apple pretty much sucked until OS X - and for good reasons (pre-OS X Mac OSes sucked). - wharlie, on 10/11/2007, -31/+99AVG Anti-virus is free, easy to setup and is totally automatic.
For Windows and Linux, sorry no Mac. - unit101, on 10/11/2007, -28/+80@ chixdiggme
"Apples are not invulnerable to viruses. It's just that the market share of Apple is so tiny and most companies use PCs, it makes no sense for someone to write a virus for such a small base of users."
That's a common misconception. The reason for the lack of viruses on OS X is not the size of the installer base, but the solidness of it's Unix underpinnings. OS 9 had some viruses, and the installer base was smaller back then. The relatively small market-share does not explain the lack of viruses in OS X. - moonboots, on 10/11/2007, -18/+69Compare this Dell e1505 to the new 15 inch MacBook Pro.
-Core 2 Duo T7200 2GHz
-15.4 1680x1050 glossy screen
-1GB DDR2
-120GB Hard Drive
-256MB RADEON X1400
The list price is $1422, but with the coupons Dell rolls out monthly, the price is $873. It's not fair to compare a discounted computer with a regular priced computer, but who the hell buys a Dell without these coupons? Compared to the new MacBook Pro's, the Dell has a slower processor, less ram, and a lesser Graphics Card. However, at less than half the price, the Dell makes the Macbook look like a scam. - QEDbitches, on 10/11/2007, -52/+98@themanmachine - "for around 100 bucks you can protect a PC pretty well"
That 100 bucks to buy an anti-virus is a YEARLY fee, which, if you do the math, over time you'll realize is not a cost-effective solution. Plus, you are relying on a home user to be competent and run the software properly (incredibly unlikely event).
In my experience, Apple makes laptops with better looks, better performance and better support. I am by no means a "fan boy," but I do respect a company with quality goods instead of the same old crap Dell sends out, loaded so heavily with bloatware that you need to reimage it out of the box. - fasda, on 10/11/2007, -14/+51Bull. After reading this I went to www.hp.com and customized a dv9500t series laptop to as best as I can determine with the same specs (I am assuming also that the apple remote thing is not a tv tunner but even if it is it still doesn't raise the price high enough) and its still a few hundred buck less then a Macbook Pro. Then did the same with a Gateway NX860XL and with a Dell inspiron E1705 the same results. Further more if you wanted you could put an HD-DVD drive in both the Gateway and HP.
- deadbaby, on 10/11/2007, -5/+41It's the same exact hardware. You may feel like an ELITE HAXOR because you can screw a motherboard into a case and plug in a stick of RAM or whatever but in reality almost anyone can do it.
- ubuntuedgy, on 10/11/2007, -10/+40Man, I really get frustrated when I read these articles. It seems that people with no relevant experience write them. First of all, you cannot bargain with Apple. The price you see is the price you get. That is not the case with Gateway or Dell. I had heard about it but did not believe it, but was buying my wife a laptop. The trick is to call them (no online ordering) and haggle. I got them to drop $300 off the price of the laptop, after I configured it to my spec. You heard me right. Call them and haggle. It works. I am sure others can testify to this. The price you see for Dell or Gateway is NOT the price you pay...unless you don't call them. You can always get that price down. A lot of people don't know this, but I guarantee if you are buying a nice system they will drop the price for you.
If you are a tech and have to buy machines in bulk (more than 50 at once), you can really work with Gateway and Dell to drop the price. They will surprise you. - Tippis, on 10/11/2007, -4/+34@ fasda
"for around 100 bucks you can protect a PC pretty well"
You can protect a windows box for $0 - anything more than that, at least as a home user, and you're being ripped off.
Not to mention that, if you are at least a teensy bit savvy, you hardly even need those programs, so no CPU cycles are wasted either. All you have to do is get a decent router (which you'll need regardless of your OS) and replace the standard browser (which you generally need to do regardless of your OS). Regardless of system, the added hassle and cost is the same: slight and zero, respectively.
In essence, the whole "the price is the same if you include protection" argument equates to a pettier, but equally useless, version of saying "setup X is more expensive, since you have to include the cost of CS3 Master edition."
@rolf
"I use Ubuntu, but I gave my parents Macs. The premium was worth it. These are people who break EVERYTHING in terms of software."
That's really the variable that all these system comparisons keep missing: the cost of the *end user* -- it won't be seen in the OS or hardware specs, let me tell you ;) - Flashman, on 10/11/2007, -26/+56@agrabob: The author's just trying to get an apples-to-apples comparison (pun intended). Does a sub-$600 PC compete with a $2000 PC? No - and that's why the author doesn't compare a $600 PC with a $2000 Mac.
- betterth, on 10/11/2007, -9/+37Here's a price comparison by someone who's a PC fan, not a Mac fanboy.
the 17" MacBook versus the Dell Inspiron E1705
Memory: 2GB DDR 667 (Winner: Both have equal memory)
HDD: 160GB 5400RPM (Winner: Both have equal hdd)
Screen: 17" 1680x1050 | 17" 1920x1200 (Winner: Dell)
Proc: 2.4GHz Core2 Duo | 2.13 GHz Core2 Duo (Winner: Apple)
Video: 8600M GT | Go 7900 GS (Winner: Dell. The only benefit to the 8 series is DirectX 10, which Apple doesn't support. The 79** series outperforms the 86** series due to poor drivers. Since Apple doesn't get DX10, the winner is Dell)
Drive: 8x Dual Layer DVD+/-RW (Winner: Both have equal drive)
Price: $2799.99 | $1923.99 (Winner: Dell, by 876$)
Count the wins:
Apple: 1
Dell: 3
Both/Tie: 3
In my book, looks like while you don't get the 2.4GHz that Apple has prevented Intel from disseminating to other companies effectively (read: harddrives for the ipod), you can get the same kind of hardware for significantly cheaper. Hell, I could go buy a Dell computer to go with this laptop for the price difference, one that has a better processor than the Core2 Duo 2.4 GHz for laptops.
But hey, we should clearly switch to Dell's overpriced XPS line to compare, because it's more expensive and makes Apple look good. - Anrkist, on 10/11/2007, -122/+150The avaerage, non-gaming computer user can get a PC for about $600, Including Monitor.. without monitor, $300... granted, they aren't always the best hardware..
The cheapest Mac is $600, no monitor... and it really doesnt do much other then surf the net and burn CD's... Mac Mini, I own one. Honestly Apple, it's time to outsource more of your hardware.
I'm sure this article summed all of that up though. - Dumbledorito, on 10/11/2007, -7/+28And from what I read, Apple isn't into giving out discounts, even if you're shelling out major bucks (and are a famous webcartoonist):
http://www.pvponline.com/blog/3283/more-like-crapple-am-i-right-guys - shalomjt, on 10/11/2007, -2/+23i just hate my life right now....i read all the comments hoping to learn something.
- Aeaus, on 10/11/2007, -6/+24Many companies sell overly expensive RAM, Apple, Sony ($1,000 for 4GBs of ram on an Vaio FZ), etc, probably because they just can :)
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -6/+24Why does he have to compare the Apple to the "most expensive" laptops. CyberPower for example... and even dell has cheaper prices then he mentioned.
- mikesbaker, on 10/11/2007, -4/+21http://www.packetshaped.com/comics/060619.jpg
I can build a decent gaming rig for around $600 but it would have a CRT instead of an LCD - Fighter2a, on 10/11/2007, -0/+16Computer manufacturers markup RAM like crazy. Just get the cheapest and then upgrade the RAM yourself. I just got 2 gigs for my laptop the other week for under $50 as opposed to paying like $400 extra if I wanted to get 2 gigs when I bought it. That might be an exaggeration I'm to lazy to check.
- fasda, on 10/11/2007, -27/+43I'm sorry, I failed to realize that in order to be good a laptop it had to be light enough so you could hold it in one outstretched arm for extended periods of time. Seriously if you think 8.5 pounds is much to heavy to carry then you desperately need to exercise.
- iamthenoise, on 10/11/2007, -11/+27i own a macbook and a few PCs. After being a life-long PC die-hard (building my own, modding, etc) i got an apple and here's what i've come to: the marketshare on these two types of computer are reversed! The masses should (in my opinion) be using OSX, while PC's (given the bragging points given on this comments list) are like custom instruments for specific purposes.
I totally get how PC's (in the hands of someone with the time, energy, and resources to get their hands into the box and work on it) are incredibly cost efficient machines....for people with specific needs. a PC set up just for gaming is easy, but not necessary to someone who just wants a simple and elegant basic experience (web use, email, writing documents, photo managing, music managing, etc). Gamers and tech-geeks, while a valid demographic, aren't the majority. A basic cheapo PC (that you didn't build yourself, and most people don't build their own PC's) comes usually bloated with all kinds of craziness, which is often difficult to get rid of. This is the reality of 3rd party involvement.
Apples are easy....just plug the f*cker in. and you're on your way to a basic experience. Notice I say basic. Nothing crazy or out-there really ever happens on a mac. Just simplicity. Everything is simplified. Sure it comes with a lot of extras too. 99% of them are extremely useful to the common user. However, if you don't like something, YOU SIMPLY DRAG IN INTO THE TRASHCAN AND ITS GONE! can any PC user claim a similar experience? nope.
But thats just it, if you want a streaming media/gaming machine...and you know your divx from your .vob files, you could definitely build yourself a PC to do the job for a lot cheaper than you could getting a mac.
Re-learning an OS is a little bit of a pain in the ass too. I get that part. if 85% of the people you interacted with used PC's, its just nonsense to relearn an OS just to sort out possible compatibility issues (by the way, macs play well with PCs).
I personally hated the fact that you don't get a right-click on a mac....until i plugged in my logitech zillion button mouse, configured it, and was hammering away as fast as I always did. Basically a non-issue.
Apple zealots suck. But the PC apologists are mostly tech savvy people who could build a PC with their eyes closed.
My conclusion:
-Your mom should be on a mac.
-If you use A LOT of hair gel and love The Crow, build a PC.
-If you love ProTools get a mac.
-If you kick serious ass with photoshop or illustrator or flash or any other digital media creation software and want to create content for commercials or movies or anything entertainment related get a mac because thats 99% of what the design houses and post-production houses use.
-If you kick as with any of the above and want to create gaming content, build a PC, thats what 80% of game content creators use. (the first xbox demo kit was run on a mac, by the way).
I now stand firm and await the onslaught of PC thrown tomato shaped sprites. - miniboss, on 10/11/2007, -5/+19I'm a Mac user so don't hang me right away, but there are two huge factors which are constantly being exploited by these pointless articles. Timing and Coupons.
Timing:
Ever notice how these comparison articles are always popping up right when a new system is released? At the cusp of a new release then a Mac compares very well to a top-of-the-line PC. But the problem is 6-8months later when age causes the price to naturally plummets on the PC, yet the 6month old Macbook Pro is still selling at it's original pricepoint.
Coupons:
Every internet savvy consumer knows that the $1499 pricetag at Dell or Best Buy won't be the price you actually pay. Coupons and sales are constant so that killer system will go down 30-50% with little effort. But with Apple there's only one price and it won't budge.
Again, I'm a Mac user and I don't mind paying extra. I just feel these articles are silly. Why try so hard to pretend the premium system we use doesn't have a premium pricetag. - Murdats, on 10/11/2007, -3/+16so what do you own? a mainframe?
apples are PC's too, the only time apple is not a pc is in their ads where they need a label to make the enemy (after all, 'PC' isnt 1 entity but many(one of which is apple)) - JimmyTheClam, on 10/11/2007, -7/+20Buried as inaccurate.
Take a look at the cost of any Apple logic board and then compare it to a PC motherboard.
That alone is 3 -6 times the cost of a similar PC motherboard.
If you like Macs, great!
Acting like any of their desktops are approximating the same value of a PC (from low to high-end) is a fantasy. - smartmlp, on 10/11/2007, -3/+15Its not like building a car or doing any sort of real electronics work. Building a computer is putting the parts together and if it doesn't work, swap in parts till it does work.
- Gottschalk, on 10/11/2007, -6/+17I'm gay and I don't use a mac so please stop throwing the whole gay thing around like it's this grave insult or imply that all gay people are effeminate or some bull *****.
- abhiroop, on 10/11/2007, -4/+14@rick:
don't know where you got your info from but here is the dell e1505 for $1400 (ish)
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T7200 (2.00GHz, 4MB L2 Cache, 667MHz FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium edit
LCD PANEL 15.4 inch Wide Screen XGA Display edit
MEMORY 2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHZ, 2 DIMM edit
HARD DRIVE Size: 160GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM) edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability edit
VIDEO CARD 256MB ATI MOBILITY™ RADEON® X1400 HyperMemory™ edit
SOUND OPTIONS Integrated Sound Blaster® Audigy™HD Software Edition edit
My Accessories
BATTERY OPTIONS 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery edit
WIRELESS CARDS Intel Next-Gen Wireless-N edit
BLUETOOTH OPTIONS Dell Wireless 355 Bluetooth Internal (2.0 + Enhanced Data Rate) edit
BLUETOOTH OPTIONS ExpressCard Media Remote for Bluetooth-enabled Notebooks edit
As you can see I even threw in some random options! The CHEAPEST MBP is $1999. - fremeer, on 10/11/2007, -9/+19ur mum is a tool. but she is a tool in a larger more diverse workbench of tools
- Charlotte_Web, on 10/11/2007, -4/+13Summary of article:
High-end Macs are a good value.
Low and mid-range Macs are not.
The reason for that, of course, is that Apple is all about the upsell. - jarsfan2k8, on 08/13/2008, -1/+10"Crystallized rays of sunshine coated in anodized fairy dust"
Holy Crap that's funny! - unruled, on 10/11/2007, -3/+11what a biased, innacurate article. Honestly, cmon, try harder next time.
burried for innacurate. - strangewill, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10*Before reading article*
Hmm, an article from a Mac user, I bet this one is fair and balanced.
*After reading article*
Ah, as I expected, running with one name brand, no research, no looking at alternatives, which is where PC has it's strength in cost effectiveness (duh!). I'm surprised these people can find their power buttons with their obvious lack of logical analysis.
BTW: Not a PC fan, not a Mac fan, just not a biased idiot. - geoken, on 10/11/2007, -9/+17"Look, if you have to run antivirus - you are wasting time, as well as Processor cycles - that equates to being slower. Same with running anything maintainence - defragmentation, ad-aware, whatever."
How does running a bunch of automated scripts at 4am while I'm sleeping amount to "wasting time"? - threemagic, on 10/11/2007, -5/+13I have a Mac Pro: what the means to those that don't know mac hardware is I have a dual core Xeon processor work station. (notice I didn't say OS X).
I run: ubuntu, Vista, and OS X all natively.
I use: OS X as a host and run the other two OS's in VM's when I'm not as picky about graphics power. (The VM manufacturers are picking up steam, the graphics issue is slowly going away).
Yes this box is not for you "I only look at the final cost" people.. it's a value computer. Value??!!! You are saying.. this dude's high. No.. it's value.. look at all I got for $2300 (see above + ati 1900 512mb video card.. I play vanguard)
Here's the other part: I had a gaming machine AND a G5 before i got this. I bought them at the same time. it was a single processor 1.8gh g5 and an AMD 3200+ with an ATI 9800 pro video card (cheap by today's standard's, I know). Well I upgraded em both. I sold my Mac for $1000 and my PC for $250.00 (both had lots of memory and HD space).... so technically (and thanks to the mac not losing it's value as fast).. my upgrade on both machines cost me a single grand. - tehtopher, on 10/11/2007, -5/+13For those who aren't getting the joke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxPXFptzQRY - jinxie, on 10/11/2007, -19/+26@ fasda - you've clearly never owned an 8lb laptop and carried it around with you everywhere. the 3 lbs make a huge difference after a while-- especially since most laptop users get a laptop specifically for portability-- so it absolutely is an important factor.
- Stirk, on 10/11/2007, -7/+14@potp
The point of weight is an issue for me. I'm a student and believe it or not lugging around an 8 pound laptop gets old very fast. When I shop for a laptop, I always have weight in mind. Now, that's not to say weight means anything to you. - willgill, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8Funny how he bumped up to the highest laptop models that had many more options than the Macbook Pro just to try and get all the options the Macbook Pro. If you went the other way around, there are features on the $1400 that the Macbook Pro doesn't have, like fingerprint reader, secure card reader, built-in EV-DO cellular access etc.
- elithrar, on 10/11/2007, -6/+12Apple's desktop machines *are* overpriced. I know, I've had one. You pay purely for OS X on those machines; and whilst it provides something of a justification, being very powerful and having some of the best workflow management I've dealt with, the hardware you get for the cost is at a premium -- and a premium that *is* hard to justify, especially with the advent of Ubuntu Studio [which isn't OS X, but it's a step in the right direction] and other OS's. iMacs & Mac Pro's are so incredibly costly it's really not funny, and it doesn't surprise me that people base their perception of Apple of these machines. Which is fair enough, I used to as well.
On the other hand, the latest MacBooks & MacBook Pros' are actually a lot more competitive, when you consider raw tech specs, screen sizes & resolutions and the actual size of the thing. Probably still a little overpriced [they need bigger HDD's, really] in some areas, but at 1" thick with the ability to work across three OS's [OS X, Windows & *nix variants] on the one machine, they do have some pretty decent benefits. It's hard for me to configure a Dell or a Sony on the Australian stores with roughly similar specs [C2D, 2GB RAM, similar/larger hard drive & dedicated graphics] at the moment, since Inspirons only have GMA950's, and the XPS's are already a few hundred more at base configs.
Frankly though, it's not a war. If you need raw value and don't need the raw stability & workflow of OS X, then build yourself a decent gaming rig for less. Or if you want to run Office well [like a *lot* of people] because Office 2004 on Rosetta is fscking terrible. If you want something where workspace & security are important, get a Mac. They target two different groups of consumers. - brstilson, on 10/11/2007, -3/+9You can "customize" a MacBook just the same as you can customize any other laptop.
- techtvforever, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6damn thats funny man. thats a good point - they prey on the feebleness of their customers who may not be technically savvy and they make it hard to upgrade there mac minis and such
- santaliqueur, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5"I never considered these pre-built machines to be real computers... If you can't build it yourself, it's just a toy."
Wow, watch out for the electronics genius over here. You're only assembling the computer. You're not building jack *****. - noghead, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5I built a system just yesterday.
Core 2 Duo e6600
500gb hd
2gigs of ram
8800gts 320mb
With a nice antec p182 case and 20inch flatpanel moniter...the total was $1280.
That is value....i dare you to go to find me a mac thats as good for that price. - shazbotter, on 10/11/2007, -6/+11@RCcola159
You can build laptops now. Google whitebook; that's what barebone laptops are being called now. In the last few years asus has been selling whitebooks to consumers directly and even before this it was possible to buy a barebones laptop assuming you could find a retailer that bought them directly from the ODM. Now you know and knowing is half the battle. YO JOE! -
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