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505 Comments
- safesolvent, on 07/03/2009, -17/+288it's pretty surprising the things that apple will willingly HIDE only to have one person on twitter push it out to thousands in a second. anyhow, i'm anxious to see where this goes and how promptly it gets "RESOLVED"...
- jeremy151, on 07/03/2009, -1/+258From a maximum PC article about 6-bit vs 8-bit:
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/6_bit_vs_8_bit_lc ...
All desktop LCDs employ thin-film transistor (TFT) technology, but there are many variants of TFT. Of these variants, twisted nematic (TN) is the cheapest to produce. Also TN screens tend to have faster response times. Thus, many vendors use this technology for their mass-market displays. Mind you, this is distinct from their professional lines --- the displays we typically review and recommend. As I understand it, TN LCDs are for the most part incapable of 8-bit color. To bridge that huge gap between 8-bit's 16.7 million colors and the 262,144 colors 6-bit is capable of, vendors use compensation techniques: either dithering, which combines adjacent pixels to simulate a desired shade, or more commonly, “frame rate control” (FRC), which rapidly cycles the 6-bit pixels to simulate the shades you’d get natively from an 8-bit panel. - rebotfc, on 07/03/2009, -29/+231If you are using a laptop screen for color critical work you are dumb.
- 4lun, on 07/03/2009, -18/+181"MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors
A few weeks ago, when Apple announced the new 13″ MacBook Pro, my ears perked up. (I may be an Apple fanboy, but I paid attention a little bit more this time.) Of course, they always advertise “gorgeous” displays. With the new MacBook Pro lineup, they boasted a wider color gamut. Okay…
Later that week, I walked into the St. Louis Galleria Apple Store, checked it out. Seemed fine to me. I needed a replacement for my 17″ MacBook Pro, you see. As Travis likes to call it, it’s an aircraft carrier. I hated lugging the thing around, especially when the weight was on my back or shoulders. I wanted a more portable machine, but I demanded the same specs. I was perfectly happy to find nearly every spec in the high-end 13″ Pro was matched (or better) to my year old 17″ Pro. The hot sexy unibody was calling my name.
I asked the sales rep if it was a 6bit or 8bit display. They didn’t know. (Nobody seems to know, Apple doesn’t give out this information to the sales reps, geniuses, tech support, nobody.) They told me it was upgraded from the 13″ MacBook’s screen, so they assumed it was better, it had a “wider color gamut” so… it must have been?
I fired up Twitterrific on my iPhone, and while I was in the Apple Store, tweeted about selling my 17″ Pro for less than half my purchase price. (I had tried selling it before, but this price was just right.) It sold within a day, and I went back to the Apple Store as soon as it did, and I made my purchase. Then I remembered I’d need an adapter for my 30″ Apple Cinema Display. I relayed the info to a sales rep, and they rang me up for the MacBook Pro and the adapter.
I went back home. Used it for a bit, no issues. It was only until I arrived back in North Carolina that I noticed both of my problems: my MacBook Pro had a less-than-stellar display and the adapter the sales rep sold me was not for my 30″ display. The MacBook Pro 13″ has a 6bit display. That means it cannot really display millions of color. Yes, on Apple’s website it claims it can “support millions of colors,” but what they don’t tell you is that it does so through a process called “dithering.” Any designer knows what that means. Anyone else: it means the screen will display colors closely in a pattern in order to give you the perception of a blended color. The display adapter is another story. The 30″ display requires a Dual-DVI Adapter, not a regular old DVI adapter. You see, when I was at the store, not only did I tell them I had a 30″ ACD, but I also asked “Isn’t that thing like $100?” They said, “Nope, it’s only $30!” I thought they lowered the price or something, but they sold me the wrong one. So instead I was stuck with an adapter that output 1280×800 on my 30″ display instead of 2560×1600. Horrible.
I called Apple Support about both of these issues. I first discussed my displeasure of using the “new” MacBook Pro display. I complained that it was a Pro machine, and should be treated as such. There are 8bit portable displays, you know, and Apple should be a company that uses them, especially when they are generally known for great quality products, but instead, they went with the cheaper option, a lower bit display. He couldn’t verify this information, because Apple doesn’t give their Support team this info. Basically, the first tier of Apple Support only has as much information as you can find on your own at Apple’s website. Naturally, he asks me if I’m sure I have my colors set to millions. Yeah, these guys assume I’m an idiot. So of course, after a few minutes, he transfers me to the second tier. Generally this is where I get my answer, but I even stumped these guys. They don’t have the information either. They’ll have to contact Apple Engineering to see if they’ve got what I’m looking for.
A few days later, I get a phone call from Apple, letting me know that Apple Engineering has declined to disclose this information. Excuse me? Declined? I just purchased your product and all I want is for you to verify the specs that you advertise. It should not be that difficult to do. But apparently, it is. A few years ago, a few individuals started a class-action lawsuit against Apple for advertising millions of colors with their 6bit displays. Unfortunately, they needed a “class” for a class-action lawsuit, and not enough people cared/noticed. The matter was settled out of court.
They did offer to send me a replacement Dual-DVI adapter, which is great. Free of charge. Just what I wanted. But it’s just serving as a distraction. I want a better portable display.
I relayed the importance of this information and why Engineering should reconsider. Again, a few days later, they refuse. I ask if there’s anyone above the second tier of customer service. There is, it’s called Customer Relations. They’re corporate, apparently. I ask to speak to one of these individuals to find that they won’t budge at all. I made the argument that as a customer, I should be able to get this information no problem. They offered to give me a full refund of my purchase. I suppose this would be fine, if I could go to another Apple retail store and purchase a portable machine of this size that had an 8bit screen. The problem lies here that Apple is the only producer of computers that run OS X (I don’t want any arguments here, okay?) and they do not offer a 13″ MacBook Pro with an 8bit screen. Good information to know would be if the 15″ or 17″ have an 8bit screen. I might consider upgrading if I knew, but they won’t give me the information I require. I ask if there’s some way I can get it. The Consumer Relations woman tells me that “the documents you have asked for are not able to be released to you.” “They are internal documents, it’s not something that’s available to the public. We are not escalating the situation.” “We are not able to provide this information to you. You’ve exhausted all your resources at this point.”
What?! I’ve exhausted all my resources? Wow. I ask what more I can do. She suggests writing a letter. A real letter, like pen and paper. I ask for the address to send it to, of course it’s “One Infinite Loop—” “Cupertino, California. Yes, I know. Thanks.”
A few minutes later, I wonder if I can get a hold of an operator at the Cupertino campus. Maybe I can speak to an employee there that may be able to assist me in a way Apple Support/ Customer Relations is not. The operator I get transfers me to Support three times before I tell her that I need to speak to someone regarding an issue not related to technical support. She asks what it is. I briefly explain, and she responds similarly, to write a letter. “One Infinite Loop—” “Cupertino, California. Yes, I know. Whom should I direct attention to?” “Steve Jobs, he’s the CEO.” My thoughts are, “Uh huh, and he’s gonna read my letter?” I mean, doesn’t Steve Jobs have better things to do than to read my letter? Surely he does. So he doesn’t read my letter, other employees do. What many say to be the highest level of customer service. But wait, wasn’t I just talking with the highest level of customer service? Customer Relations, on the phone. Yes.
I called Apple Support again, with my case ID. With that, I am immediately taken to Customer Relations. I get another individual. I inform him that I was told that I should write a letter to have my complaint heard, and he assures me that is the best option. I ask how I can be assured that someone will read it, much less respond. I mean, really, I’ve sent to emails to Steve Jobs regarding other products, and neither have received a response, so how can I really expect one at this point? Also, if Customer Relations is the highest level I can go, who is reading my mail? This guy? He tells me no, that it’s another group. I asked him what the group is called, and he asks back, “Why?” Why?! I’ll tell you why, I’ve been going back and forth with Apple trying to get this information, so I’m writing down everything I can, so the name of this group would help. He sidetracks and doesn’t answer the question. He told me that he’s the highest level of customer service I can talk to on the phone.
Do these people who read mail not interact with customers by phone? He says they may, but they don’t have an incoming line. So what I’m supposed to do is write a letter, hope it will be read, and hope for a response. Yeah, right.
You might be sitting there thinking why I am possibly caring this much. Well, let me put this into perspective for you. You already know I’m a designer, so you know how important color is to me. A 8bit screen such as my 30″ Apple Cinema Display is able to achieve 16.7 million colors. A 6bit MacBook Pro screen? 262,144 thousand colors. That’s roughly 60 times less colors. That means for all of those colors it can’t display, it blends with nearby pixels. This is just embarrassing and unacceptable.
I did look up the model number, for those of you who are curious. The one inside my machine is a LP133WX3-TLA1, which is a LG Philips display. The product guide on their site does not have this model number, but all of the other displays they offer for portable machines are 6bit.
In a machine labeled a “MacBook Pro,” you’d think they’d cater to, well I don’t know, professionals?" - inactive, on 07/03/2009, -6/+143Didn't they say this years ago?
- frumpsnake, on 07/03/2009, -3/+138AFAIK, all 15 and 17 inch unibody MBPs (and Macbook Airs) are 8-bit panels.
13 inch unibody MBs and MBPs can be EITHER 6-bit TN or 8-bit IPS -- just before the "Pro" addition, Apple silently switched. I presume they've also got rid of excess TN stock too.
There are plenty of threads on MacRumors with info on various LCD panels found inside the MacBooks.
Also all modern displays use FRC to simulate colours -- the display is switching pixel values very fast. It's not the same as dithering. - Branchex, on 07/03/2009, -19/+122This combined with the fact that they only offer matte screens on the 17 in. for $50 more now kinda shows their priorities with laptop screens which is sad. Hackintoshs may be the best new laptops for designers now.
- inactive, on 07/03/2009, -12/+115Why would a graphics "pro" want to use a 13" portable for their work? If one is involved in CG on a professional level, you'd think that they would opt to perform their duties in a suitably lit environment, with an optimally set large external display.
I'm involved in audio work, and sometimes I'll do a bit of experimentation, editing, or sequencing on my MacBook when away from my studio, but I would NEVER perform any critical work (such as mixing or mastering) without access to my external monitors (i.e. speakers), outboard gear, and better audio interface; why? For the same reason that Mr. Mantia should not perform his CG work - which I assume he gets PAID for - away from HIS studio: you can't trust what your ears (or eyes) tell you in a compromised environment with portable gear. Hell, I'm no expert, but I'm willing to bet that just the monitor angle ALONE probably matters in graphic work (not audio, obviously), right? If so, how can you possibly trust what you see on any portable notebook computer? If I want icons designed on a 13" notebook computer, I can do that myself, and not waste my money hiring Mr. Mantia for the job, thank you very much. People who are considering employing people from the Icon Factory (where he works) for their CG needs would be well advised to inquire what exactly they're getting for their dough.
Here's a MacNN forum thread on the subject: http://forums.macnn.com/69/mac-notebooks/394160/mb ...
All that said, it does sound like he got a bit of a runaround from the guys and gals in Cupertino, but what megacompany doesn't do that to its customers? To think that Apple - despite its well-deserved rep for great customer service - would be different is at best naive, even for a self-described "fanboy" like Louie Mantia. - Commodus, on 07/03/2009, -11/+111Much ado about nothing -- MOST notebook LCDs don't display a full 16.7 million colours, even the ones that are touted for vivid pictures and accuracy. It's hard to make an extremely thin, small display that still produces images as good as a desktop LCD that can afford thicker parts.
- darkfish, on 07/03/2009, -8/+106Apparently that site is using a 2-bit server. It's already down after 136 diggs.
- FoxtrotYankee, on 07/03/2009, -1/+98Here's how they can resolve it:
1) Admit that they put a 6-bit display on a "Pro" machine.
2) Answer his questions about the display on the 15" and 17" pro models. - jakem1, on 07/03/2009, -12/+103Buyer beware. If an 8-bit screen is so important to the buyer and he's unable to get the correct information from the supplier then he should consider buying from a supplier that will provide the information he needs. If he's going to tie himself to OSX then he needs to accept the limitations that he's imposing on himself.
- cr12345, on 07/03/2009, -5/+95... and likely not a professional.
- Kanaka, on 07/03/2009, -4/+88I thought ALL TN laptop displays were only 6bit (display thousands not millions of colours) and use dithering to simulate millions of colours
- bluebirdgm, on 07/03/2009, -5/+76And apparently the website only takes hundreds of hits.
- splicerslicer, on 07/03/2009, -12/+78this just in-- The new iPhone 3GS has the "new" features of video and copy/paste. It's sure great that they "resolved" this issue as well. Better go out and buy the new one now.
- mpobri, on 07/03/2009, -6/+69I totally agree, to put the conditions he requires (must run OSX, must be 13", must be Pro, must be 8-bit display) is quite annoying.
And to take the marketing name "Pro" to mean "for professionals" is just silly. I guess if your car has GT in the model name, you should jump on a race track. - NicP, on 07/03/2009, -4/+64Isn't this true for all TN panels? Are there any laptop displays that aren't TN?
- Maraud3r, on 07/03/2009, -6/+63How about fix it by changing their falsely advertised specs? Not lying to people is general a good tactic that people respond positively to.
- Kapitaine, on 07/03/2009, -8/+59All I need is red and yellow and pink and green, orange and purple and blueeeeeee....
- ChasingCars, on 07/03/2009, -1/+51Indeed they did. There was even a lawsuit several years ago, as mentioned in this article.
- vbellian, on 07/03/2009, -11/+61you can only get seven colors on your pc?
- rageguy, on 07/03/2009, -7/+55@RobynG7 He missed the fact Apple are lying on their website saying the display supports millions of colours. They then made a lie of omission (which is still a lie) by not revealing the correct information about the monitor when he asked. It is one thing for the phone support to not know the answer, its quite another to actively cover up the information which is advertised clearly.
They are compounding the lie by continuing to advertise the incorrect information at this very second on their website.
Quote
"13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display with support for millions of colors"
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/fam ...
I'm sorry, I know there is a lot of Apple fandom on Digg. However they are clearly in the wrong in this case.
If they have even a smidgen of customer service in their corporate bones they need to fix this, fast! - ripple123, on 07/03/2009, -11/+56well, you could always get a pc. all the colors of the ***** rainbow on those bitches.
- metaphyze, on 07/03/2009, -0/+45Google before you comment. Sorry, but that's wrong. The human eye CAN see millions of colors. The exact number is unknown, but it is in the millions.
http://ask.yahoo.com/20041227.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_colors_can_a_hu ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=jpH1_dCT_UcC& ... - CressCrowbits, on 07/03/2009, -5/+50Mirror? Site appears to be down.
- DaFunk, on 07/03/2009, -1/+46While that might be true, the issue is that the "specs" listed by Apple for all the MacBook Pro's say that they display in "millions of colors," not "hundreds of thousands that appear as millions." Since there are in fact monitors out there that do display millions of colors, and some of those are in laptops, it's not unreasonable for someone to think that the MB Pro really displays millions of colors. The idea that just because most laptops don't display millions of colors makes it acceptable for Apple to advertise their product as displaying millions of colors when it does not is not very justifiable. I think many would claim that to be false advertising.
- mr5150, on 07/03/2009, -0/+43Thanx for the great explanation...i had no idea and i managed to learn something new about LCD screens.../neato
Kudos to ya!!
- RoroCo, on 07/03/2009, -1/+44Color match depends on calibration between the printer and the screen of the computer. To say one company is better at color matching then another is naive. Unless you have a mythical iPrint somewhere.
- RoroCo, on 07/03/2009, -3/+42When a designer puts in a specific color code for a project. That better damn well be the color that is displayed. You might not care, but in the design word specifics count - especially when discussing things like trademarks.
- ak47ak47, on 07/03/2009, -44/+79so if this guy asked in the store if the computer had an 8 bit screen and couldn't get an answer, why did he buy the computer in the first place? if he's a professional whose work is so important that it requires an 8 bit display, why can't he afford the 15 inch model? if he can really tell the difference when using the computer, why couldn't he have seen this in store?
and hey, guess what, dithering and other techniques used to simulate millions of colors DO work. that's why they are used. if you are doing work that requires absolutely perfect color, why would you be using any kind of laptop monitor at all?
the dual dvi adapter thing is this guy's fault as well. how about reading the damn package or googling this stuff before buying it? every computer in the apple store has internet connection ya know. since when are you supposed to trust any salesman's word on pretty much anything, even at the apple store, especially when they obviously don't have complete information at purchase.
Apple gave him a PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE response. They don't make an 8 bit monitor equipped laptop, so they offered a refund. They messed up with the DVI adapter, so they offered the dual DVI version for FREE. What the hell more can you ask, do you want Apple to make a special laptop just for you? it's not their fault this person is too stupid to be tied into OS X and not able to use any kind of alternative.
i googled this stuff and found out within seconds that apple doesn't make a laptop with an 8 bit screen.
it sounds to me like this guy is just a stupid shopper that hasn't been living in the 20/21st century for very long. - chalmo, on 07/03/2009, -3/+37"262,144 thousand colors."? That's a hell of a lot more than 16.7 million colours...
- tanman4sg, on 07/03/2009, -8/+40I'm a photographer. I notice colour. The screen on my 2007 15" MBP is truly shocking (and I proved this with measurements from a spectrophotometer). It is definitely noticeable. Blotchy patches in colourful areas.
I don't like the Apple Cinema displays either. The only ones I trust are those made by Eizo. - KibibyteBrain, on 07/03/2009, -3/+34@swimtwobirds I'm pretty sure formatted pasting is from the same API used in OSX. And that API exists on like a billion other platforms too, including FOSS implementations.
- BurtCokain, on 07/03/2009, -4/+33No, you don't need to buy the new one if you want copy & paste. The latest patch finally gave copy & paste to all iPhones.
- bradleyland, on 07/03/2009, -4/+32http://rorr.im
- Lionhart, on 07/03/2009, -2/+30So you counted all million of them? Really, how do you know you have millions? Because it tells you that?
- RoroCo, on 07/03/2009, -4/+32Maybe the glossy screen is meant to somehow hide the dither a bit... That might be why the 17" is the only one with a matte finish.
- 44Bigs, on 07/03/2009, -3/+30This has been known for quite some time. It also kind of pisses me off that my €1800 notebook has an inferior screen. But I must say that I hardly notice it in day-to-day use (as a web designer).
However, the default background from OS X Tiger clearly showed gradient banding on the screen, so that was kind of bad. - rageguy, on 07/03/2009, -2/+29I'm not sure what the relevant laws are like where you are from TitsMageee. However here when a company is falsely advertises an item and worse yet attempts to cover up the fact they have done so is a very serious offense.
He is quite rightly complaining about the fact they haven't corrected the situation or their advertising. Correcting the situation would involve admitting the stuff-up as a first step. - NHeerDesign, on 07/03/2009, -1/+25My MacBook Pro (15", Santa Rosa, mid-2007) has a 6-bit display, for what it's worth. This display, in fact: http://dznr.org/2eba
You can check your display info using this handy page: http://www.eidac.de/?p=94 - brandnewx, on 07/03/2009, -0/+24I'm not sure why you got buried. 2^8 indeed equal 256. So 8-bit has a maximum of 256 values or colors.
Anyway, 8-bit or 6-bit in the article is about a color point not actually a pixel. A pixel of LCD is made up of three smaller color points, each has 8-bit so three tiny points combined will simulate 24-bit color which is about 16M. If a color point is 6-bit, the pixel color is 18-bit which is 252,144 colors like you mentioned. - KawazoeMasahiro, on 07/03/2009, -0/+23That is awfully true. And since every bit of OS X is designed for Apple hardware (and a mean EVEY single one of them, even colors), the quick look window, when on white background, use a color that no other TN LCDs can display correctly. Try it if you have a Mac with a third party TN LCD. Zoom on that window using ctrl+scroll and then see! See how it flicker because of dithering.
That's it. Long live professionnal photography grade monitors :D - Hardcore41, on 07/03/2009, -4/+27thousands of colors. thats alot. I can only name like 6.
- bilbohicks, on 07/03/2009, -0/+20I'm pretty sure the fact you've clearly confused commas and apostrophes devalues any facts you might hold true.
- KibibyteBrain, on 07/03/2009, -0/+19Laptop monitors suck no matter how hard you try. In benchmarks, the best of the best in notebook displays performed about the same as the worst desktop displays...
- overburn, on 07/03/2009, -5/+23except he's not. maybe you missed the part mentioning that he's using the MBP connected to his 30" display...
- moofree, on 07/03/2009, -10/+28If your computer's named after a fruit, it should grow on a plant.
- RobynG7, on 07/03/2009, -8/+25Actually, he covered all his bases pretty good.
- KungFooJesus, on 07/03/2009, -6/+22who taught you math?
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