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58 Comments
- OutlawSamurai, on 10/12/2007, -1/+45Why xar is interesting:
http://www.opendarwin.org/~bbraun/whyxar.html - eleven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+20I would bet this would replace .pkg files. Well not .pkg itself but the .pax file that is used to store the data in an installer. Either way this article not exactly detailed.
- devindotcom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16or .bin, .hqx, .sit, .zip, .pkg or what?
- megagram, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16"Why create a new format for archives. I would much rather have OS X natively support unarchiving rar/sitx/bin/hqx"
If Apple does use this .xar format, you won't ever notice. It'll be the same as using current .pkg files you use today to install some programs. If they go with .xar files, it will be the Installer application using them. You won't have to download anymore extra software, don't worry.
As for native support for the formats you mentioned. I'm pretty sure those are all proprietary formats. Even if you use Windows, you gotta download third party tools to open them. Boo hoo! - soogy, on 10/12/2007, -13/+28No. I'm digging you up. That'll ***** teach you to reply to the wrong comment.
- earthtoandy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14read the link. its an open darwin project.
and why should installer packages be non proprietary anyway? they are installers native to a specific os....nothing new here - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13It's not a proprietary format. To get the source:
Use the following commands to get XAR from the OpenDarwin CVS server
cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.opendarwin.org:/Volumes/src/cvs/od login
cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.opendarwin.org:/Volumes/src/cvs/od co -P xar - jonshipman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13DMG stands for "Disk Image" meaning built-in virtual CDs. Since .ISO does not support HFS+, Apple has DMGs. Non HFS+ DMGs can actually be renamed to .iso
- evilic0n, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Is this supposed to replace .dmg files?
- standalonematt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Digg also allows you to easily ignore and skip the stories you are not interested in. What an *****.
- megagram, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14He didn't say it was a proprietary format you fools! He's complaining because it's another one of those pesky _propriety_ formats!
God, I hate those! - DaMacGuy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9"Why create a new format for archives. I would much rather have OS X natively support unarchiving rar/sitx/bin/hqx :/"
Check out UnArchiver (http://wakaba.c3.cx/s/apps/unarchiver.html) [no vested interest, just a user]. It handles Zip, Tar-GZip, Tar-BZip2, Rar, 7-zip, LhA, StuffIt, and many more (too many to list). It nearly seamlessly replaces the system BOMArchiveHelper.app, and it's source is available through Google Code (http://code.google.com/p/theunarchiver/). - jonshipman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I just wish everyone would stop using pkgs. Make everything self contained in one app file and one .plist in your Preference folder and then that'd be it.
- eleven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@OutlawSamurai
Your comment and link were about 200 times more useful than the article. XAR sounds pretty good for developers and for apple. Users wont ever really be exposed to it so I guess it's good for them too! - zonk3r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6That joke's so bad even Yakov would have regretted telling it.
- jeriqo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6When drag and dropping, press Option to force copying, and Command to force moving.
- mikev, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10Why create a new format for archives. I would much rather have OS X natively support unarchiving rar/sitx/bin/hqx :/
- DaMacGuy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It'll most likely not be something that we see from the UI. Just a different method of containing files within a pkg installer, and most often as a file format for downloaded projects from darwinports.
Not lame, but not amazing news either. - DarkElf109, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Now Russia has a new reason to hate Apple.
They got rid of the XARs years ago! - ApplCmptrDood, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7The above user jeremedia is a perfect example of a person that does not use the reply button.
- Mufflegrump, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Calm down there. I know it can be tough to wait for Vista to come out, we all feel it. But just relax and soon enough you'll be able to install Vista on your PC.
- jeriqo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4You can't reply to a user you banned since you know, you don't see his comments anymore, that's why you banned him, actually.
- TheQwe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I sure hope this includes some sort of method of uninstalling packages, one of the biggest things missing in OS X IMHO.
- raynevandunem, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4In relation to what evilic0n said, I've long been curious about how Mac OS X differs from other Unix-like systems, such as Debian and Fedora, in its treatment of application formats.
The vast majority of Linux distros makes their desktop applications, such as Firefox and Amarok, available only as packages. However, Mac OS X makes their applications available in both packages and disc images, with the former being used only for applications which interface directly with the system's internals (such as Internet Explorer for Mac).
The only Linux system which has been likened to Mac OS X's treatment of application is GoboLinux, particularly because it allows for installing packages without compilation by dragging-dropping them into their own folders.
However, as GoboLinux's approach and intent is different from that of Mac OS X, the only other Linux system or desktop environment that compares to Mac OS X in its treatment of application installation formats: ROX Desktop.
My question is: how is it that Mac OS X can reconcile packages with disc images?
I mean, what exactly are disc images, and are there any true equivalents to disc images in the Desktop Linux world?
Are disc images even packages? - fweeky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"I mean, what exactly are disc images"
A disk image is a straight copy of the raw data on a disk, just stored as a file. Formats like dmg provide optional compression without losing the ability to seek within the data, which plain compression formats like gzip and deflate don't (directly) support.
"are there any true equivalents to disc images in the Desktop Linux world?"
Block devices can be trivially backed by files on any Unixy system, and most have some format for compressed images -- that's how most LiveCD's work for instance; by mounting a compressed disk image on the CD alongside a memory backed mount or 4. I'm not aware of a particular standard for naming and distributing disk images which most desktop environments will mount automagically.
Disk images aren't used very commonly for distributing software outside OS X though; tarballs are the defacto standard Unix wise and tend to have decent desktop integration (e.g. KDE's KIO slaves make them available as a virtual filesystem through Konquerer and other KDE-supporting apps). Disk images require extra privileges normal users rarely have (being able to mount arbitary data as a kernel-space filesystem opens a lot of avenues for attack), as well as depending on the user's kernel having whatever filesystem is used on the image, which also makes it suck if you want to make or use an archive in another OS -- e.g. FreeBSD has Linux userspace compatibility, but the ext2fs support's not used much as it's primary filesystem is a UFS variant. - jeremedia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4The above post by "NimbusDIGG" is a perfect example of when to use the Block User button. I plan to block every user that is an obvious tool, and am very curious to see if this makes the Digg comments more tolerable/useful.
- eleven, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Disk Images are disk images. Much like ISOs.
Packages are packages. Packages are installer "documents" that launch the installer program and prompt you to install their contents.
Disk images can contain packages or any other file types. They mount like real disks. - megagram, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5.pkg
The Package Maker and Install applications both use these files to install programs and their respective support files to the appropriate directories. .dmg files have a completely different use.
edit: eleven beat me to it. - jonahan52, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Umm have you tried it in Tiger works fine for me .. Click on file ...copy .. go where you want it .. paste ..Tada!
- DaMacGuy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This won't have any impact on uninstalling.
Do any of the current uninstaller apps (ex. AppZapper, etc) bother to read the BOM file in the receipt packages created by pkg installers? This bill of material should list all the files installed making uninstalling much easier.
This was suppose to be a feature in 10.0, but it got dropped and has been on my wish list ever since. - t3hX, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Why create a new format for archives. I would much rather have OS X natively support unarchiving rar/sitx/bin/hqx :/
1. Slight issue - rar and sitx are proprietary formats, might have to get licensing.
2. Nobody (sane) uses bin or hqx any more. It's either zip, or tar.gz these days... or DMG (gzip compressed anyway).
3. There's always that app - The Unarchiver. - bobcorrigan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2There is a certain similarity between XAR packaging format and some of the central principles in the solution deployment descriptor.
From the OASIS TC Description (http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=sdd)
"The purpose of the OASIS SDD TC is to define XML schema to describe the characteristics of an installable unit (IU) of software that are relevant for core aspects of its deployment, configuration, and maintenance. This document will be referred to as the Solution Deployment Descriptor (SDD)."
An IU is "something that you are going to deploy". The SDD is associated with the IU and describes it in deep detail. This has also been described as the IUDD - the installable unit deployment descriptor.
There are many significant benefits to externalizing metadata about the objects to be installed/deployed outside of - but directly associated with - the archive that will be deployed. If you know what you're getting, you'll know what to do with it. Big distro systems like Tivoli, Unicenter need this to reduce the complexity of deploying multi-component software, especially when those systems need to be configured to wotk together before the total "solution" is functional.
So in changing to a deployment technology that makes it easier for customers to deploy it's operating system, Apple is being a very friendly corporate citizen.
Full disclosure - I was a PM at an installer company in a previous life, so I have a lot of thoughts on this topic. - jeriqo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Just Trash It (tm)
- FaT32, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2XAR format already existed for many many years: http://xara.com
So, bad name that will confuse some people... - DeMarko, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I think there's always been file copy/paste. If you're referring to cut and paste, that's a different issue, one which is slightly annoying to some people switching from Windows. OS X does "moving" within the same disks (correct me if I'm wrong) and if moving off disk, it copies. I'd be interested in an Advanced preference pane that allows you to cuztomize how this is handled as sometimes I'd just like to command-X things to other places, I appreciate the graphical interface and all (spring loaded folders are cool) but I've always wondered why the weird behavior with cut and paste
- jeriqo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Like you will even notice...
- DaMacGuy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Even Rob Braun's explanation isn't very helpful. It looks like its most significant feature is making filedata and metadata accessible without needing to expand the contents.
- raynevandunem, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2..."that's how most LiveCD's work for instance; by mounting a compressed disk image on the CD alongside a memory backed mount or 4"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloop
That was designed explicitly for LiveCDs, and is cited within the article as being similar to the .dmg format.
"tarballs are the defacto standard Unix wise and tend to have decent desktop integration (e.g. KDE's KIO slaves make them available as a virtual filesystem through Konquerer and other KDE-supporting apps)."
I *strongly* dispute that.
Why is it that tarballs have to be compiled into distro-specific packages before being offered to the public to download and install?
I mean, whenever a tarball is offered by some Sourceforge project for download and installation, the first thought that comes to mind is "oh, man! I can't use it because it hasn't been packaged for Ubuntu yet!" One example: Firefox 1.5 circa Breezy Badger, which took forever for the Ubuntu maintainers to include by default. The "noobs" on Ubuntuforums.org were nagging them 24:7 over that (not to mention the local Autopackage advocate).
Plus, most open-source (and closed-source) software makers throw out tarballs to the Linux crowd (with their 300+ distributions) like bones to dogs. It's like they don't even expect you to know what to do with it unless you're command-line proficient (and possibly a distro maintainer).
And when they are packaged, what are you going to do with the .debs? The .rpms?
Once again, command-line ("make install", I presume?). At least Ubuntu allows for a pick-and-click list of installed applications.
So sure, its a mostly-decent desktop integration, as long as the packages are installed by default. - Yodacola, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Apple's XAR seems a bit more sane than Microsoft's WIM, but we will just have to see how well each perform in the coming month.
- gunnmjk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1DesInstaller checks installed package receipts to do uninstalls. I prefer it over AppZapper.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Blocked!
- jhonizzle, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1yeah i mean obviously everyone except you must be a Poser...we all apologize.
- adragons, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3C'mon, its not so bad. Its better than the "in soviet russia, joke tells you" format
- ispshadow, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3Wow, all this gadgetry being put into the system...XAR, ZFS, etc. How about file copy/paste???
Can anyone tell me if this will be in Leopard? I mean, it's not like it hasn't been in other operating systems for years or anything. It was the sole reason my PowerPC Mini went on Ebay. - Angostura, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Buried. Uninformative crap blog spam, from what I can tell.
- hyperden, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1This is just a rumor that has no real evidents. It would not make sense for apple to confuse its users more.
- martelsc, on 10/12/2007, -4/+0Well, the article only state that implemented XAR, without explaining exactly what they intend to use it for... .dmg will certainly still be around for a while.
- cinnix, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3http://www.duggmirror.com/apple/Leopard_Mac_OS_X_10_5_new_package_format_XAR/
- abcdefghij, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1@spidoman:
'Never liked .dmg. Always made me think of "damage"'
yep, same here.. this is what happens when you play too much RPGs..
WTFOMGBBQ! Super Thunder Hyper Magneto Blood Sword, DMG 768++!!! - fsyfsy, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1If anyone is interested here you can find at least 30 screen shots of Leopard Mac OS X 10.5
http://www.imaciforums.com/ileopard/ -
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