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219 Comments
- Chewie67, on 10/12/2007, -12/+80This is a very interesting situation for me. I'm the guy my friends, family and neighbors go to for advice when it's time to buy a new PC. Up till now I have tended to send them to Dell. I pick out a box that meets their needs, send them a link to exactly where to get it on Dell's web site, and they go off and order it.
Since the introduction of Boot Camp, however, I've been tempted to send people down to the Apple store instead. Two things have held me off, however.
1. Price. Yes, Apple may be a better VALUE than Dell for what you get inside the box, but it's hard to convince a friend to spend $1,299 on a new iMac when they see $499 ads for Dell each week in the newspaper. The iMac may be a much more capable machine, but at more than double the price, the "average" computer user doesn't care.
Add to that the fact that they need to buy a FULL version of Windows XP, and now the $1,299 iMac becomes a $1,499 iMac.
2. Beta. In order for me to recommend a dual booting iMac to my less-than-computer-savvy friends, it has to be bullet-proof. Right click needs to work. It can't mess up the partitions. It just has to work.
I don't think we're quite there yet. Right? - cblalock, on 10/12/2007, -6/+67Awesome article. Horrible summary.
- catullus, on 10/12/2007, -8/+50there is no longer a $499 mac mini. check the site
- Chewie67, on 10/12/2007, -7/+38"a $499 dell better might match up to a Mac Mini"
Okay, granted -- there is the Mac Mini at $599. In fact, I have one and it's great.
That said, today Dell has a PC for $272.00 WITH a Monitor, Mouse and Keyboard.
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DB110A&s=dhs
So whether it's a $399 Dell verus $1,299 iMac or a $272 Dell versus a $599 Mini, the point is still the same. Dell has the price edge in almost all cases BECAUSE we're not comparing comparable machines. The Dell has a 2.53 GHz Celeron and the Mini has the more advanced 1.5GHz Core Solo. The Dell has 256MB of 400MHz DDR SDRAM and the Mini has 512MB of 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM. Etc.
"Simple" computer users don't care about that, however. They don't know the difference between a Celeron or a Core processor or DDR versus DDR2 RAM. They just see the price AND the fact that they get a Monitor, Keyboard and Mouse from Dell. Doesn't matter if the are crummy -- they don't know the difference. - Chewie67, on 10/12/2007, -11/+39I know this has been said a billion times but....
Apple PC's are NOT horribly over-priced!!!!!
The reason this argument continues to be made is that Apple doesn't sell a bargain basement computer. They tend to sell machines with middle to higher end components. When compared to computers with similar parts, the prices are usually similar. Search the web, you'll find countless price comparisons between Apple and Dell machines. Sometimes Dell is the better value. Sometimes Apple is the better value.
Apple doesn't sell a $399 bare-bones computer, however, and that's what people see in the newspaper. "An iMac costs $1,299 but I can get a Dell for $399!" Of course you can, but it's not a comparable machine to the iMac. Load your Dell with the same components as the $1,299 iMac, then see what the price is... - DevanJedi, on 10/12/2007, -3/+29Most people that are switching are doing so because they have always wanted a Mac but couldn't let go of Windows for work/games/significant-other/that-one-application. Now they can make the switch and not lose whatever it was that was holding them back.
- toastgodsupreme, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27Here's the deal... I've been a Windows user since Win95. After basic training is over for me, I WILL be buying an Intel MBP. I will dualboot OS X and WinXP. If apple had not gone the way of making dual booting possible, I would probably never get a chance to use OS X as much as I will with a dual boot system.
I may not be converted to OS X, but it might make me more of a fan of the OS since I'll have actually used it on a regular basis. - etandrib, on 10/12/2007, -9/+34I have grown up on PCs since the first days of DOS. I was excited for Windows 95, 98, 2000, ME (don't ask why, I don't know), XP, and Vista. I worked for a University Computer Lab which managed about 1500 PCs and I actually helped remove all the Macs out of the labs when I was put in management.
I got a new job about a year ago and my main computer is a Mac Mini. A year later I could care less about Vista and Windows now. I don't have anti-spyware or anti-virus running and I enjoy the ease of configuration and simplicity which allows me to do my job, not troubleshooting computer problems. As a consumer and not an Enterprise partner with massive needs for email, project, and network collaboration OS X has everything I need out of the box.
I've recommend Dell to friends and family since 1996. Two weeks ago I took my mom to the Apple store and she walked out with a $1300 iMac. She loves it and it has what she wants to do out of the box: Calendar, Email, Photos, Movie creation, DVD creation, Music, etc.
What is that? Vista Beta 2 is released? I don't care... let me know when OS 10.5 "Leopard" is released. - Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -10/+33Here's the deal... I was a long time windows user, but I switched last year and I can tell you Mac OS X is better than Windows.
- DevlinD, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24I concur with my fellow Diggers. I am a software developer and that is pretty much all I live for besides my girlfriend. I have wanted to use a Mac for so long but it just never made any business sense to me since there tend to be more integration problems when moving from a Mac to a Windows/Linux environment. Plus a lot of the tools I use tend to have shoddy support for the Mac platform. And since neither my company or the clients I work with use Macs at all, as I said before it just made no sense.
BUT since I can now have a OSX and Windows on the same machine, a machine that is FAR more bad ass than any Dell machine (even not considering the price), I am now really really considering moving to a Mac. The operating system is awesome, it comes with great apps that I would actually use, and the performance you get out of it is second to none (performance is probably my highest ranking criterion). And to top it all off I dont have to risk messing around trying to find a tool that will work on a Mac.
I guess another benefit is that now I will be able to write stuff and test it against a Mac as well. I think this was a great move by Apple but only time will tell if it has really paid off. Just because they shipped a couple thousand extra notebooks due to Windows support really doesnt mean anything in the long run. But good luck to them :) - dclowd9901, on 10/12/2007, -6/+27I know my next purchase is going to be a Mac. I've always been a fan of their tech support, and their craftsmanship and style are top notch (minus a few excusable quirks), but have been wary about moving away from the heavily-supported Windows platform. Now with BootCamp, that last reason has dripped out of the bucket. My next purchase is to be a macbook pro. See you guys on the other side...
- soopafly, on 10/12/2007, -10/+27bought my mom a $399 Dell about a year ago... it's now rendered useless. Slow as hell. Shoulda bought a MacMini
- Zorkon, on 10/12/2007, -5/+22Heh. You go right on believing that.
I'm *sure* the last person I sold a Mac to was buying it as a status symbol. Let's see, 82 year old retired engineer, lives alone. Wants Mac so that he can do his banking, surf the web, and make photo albums of his great-grandchildren.
Yup. No doubt he's going to run out and buy a pair of iPod-integrated Nike shoes next... The man is a STYLE MACHINE!
Or, more likely, he wanted a computer that was simple to use, did what he asked it to do, and didn't require that he invest a crapload of time in just managing the damn thing.
But, believe what you will. - mateo60, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15I used to always recommend Dells to newbie computer users. Not because they're necessarily the best pcs out there, but because they were decent, generally consistantly made, and for the most part, had a really solid warranty. It also would come with everything they would ever want. Would I ever buy a Dell? Probably not. I would always build my own.
However, for new people now, I always recommend a Mac. I would explain that if you wanted to buy a computer and not have to become a security expert and a computer expert, that it was the best option. I've recently purchased my first Mac and I love it. - EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -15/+25Let's see, from Dell I just configured the following:
Dell System vs. iMac
Dell: Pentium D 2.8GHz Dual Core
iMac: 1.83GHz Core Duo
Dell: 19" LCD
iMac: 17" LCD
Dell: 1GB RAM
iMac: 512MB
Dell: ATI 256MB X600
iMac: 128MB X1600
Dell: Modem
iMac: no modem
Dell: $727
iMac: $1299
Hell, I could buy the above system with a 24" LCD for $1,117, $182 cheaper than buying a 23" Apple Cinema display alone. No shopping around or anything, just what Dell happened to be offering today. http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.php?catid=18&threadid=615112&highlight_key=y&keyword1=dimension
How is Apple not that much more expensive again? - ggrant2001, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12I also went out and bought my first Mac ever - a 2.0 Ghz MBP. However, it was not Bootcamp that made me do that. There is a product (still in Beta) called Parallels (http://www.parallels.com) that lets you run Windows (or Linux/BSD/Solaris X86) simultaneously with OS X. So far, for *my* use of the product has been a happy one.
That being said, I hardly ever use Windows on my Mac. All the things I do (email, presentations, spreadsheets, etc.) work great on the Mac native. I know this is not the case for everyone, especially for some important graphics apps that don;t run native on Intel Macs yet.
Not a Mac fan boy - just a happy switcher. - BESTenemy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14A hypothetical question. If PC's had their version of Boot Camp that allowed them to run OSX, how many Mac users would switch over? Forget the OS for a moment.
Personally I find the ability to customize every component of my PC more appealing than getting a pre-built bundle from Mac with components none of which I'll be able to re-use in the future systems. When throwing out a PC I only get rid of the most obsolete parts, with Mac's the entire system ends up in the trash. As far as I'm concerned I waste less money upgrading with PC's. - Zorkon, on 10/12/2007, -10/+19Chewie67: "Right-click *has* to work"?
Get out of the early 90's my friend. Right-clicking has worked on Macs for a very, very long time.
The Mighty Mouse that the iMacs ship with is a 4-button mouse. If you boot into Windows, right-clicking works as expected. Hell, if you stay in OS X and you have right-click enabled (which it is by default), it works as expected.
Bootcamp is seamless. The only thing I've run into is that the beta audio drivers don't support sound routing - ie: if you plug headphones into the Mac, sound comes out the headphones *and* the built-in speakers (in Windows) ... under OS X sound routes correctly and the speakers shut off.
There's no partition oddness. Simply run the Bootcamp assistant, repartition your drive, and then make sure you select the C: drive you just created when you boot up the Windows installer. Couldn't be simpler.
As for people not caring about the better value ... you'd be surprised. I've sold many, many Macintoshes to Windows converts who were looking for $699 computers ... and ended up going Mac because of the ease of use, especially when it came to working with multimedia. - synd, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16The "Apple sells overpriced computers" myth ended a long time ago. Here's a few links for you.
http://tinyurl.com/qce2g
http://www.systemshootouts.org/
Point is: Apple doesn't sell barebones PCs. They sell top-of-the-line configured PCs. And so does Dell. It's only fair to compare two similarly spec'd machines, right? I think so too. And when these machines are spec'd similarly, the Apple wins, hands down. Both aesthetically and functionally. - kupodan, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12I'm using a MBP and if it wasn't for boot camp, I wouldn't own a mac. Oh, and I almost forgot to mention, I don't use windows anymore, removed the partition for more space for OS X. Basically apple can accomplish converts through people getting to use their software and see and feel superiority. I'm a new mac convert myself.
- boozedrinker, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9You all need to quit ranting back and forth about what is better and what is a better value for the money. I hate to be overly jerkoffish here, but I am a 15 year Windows user - I SWITCHED. Face it jerkoffs, Macs are better, and worth every penny you pay for them. After one year of Mac ownership, I have nothing else to say in that regard.
Ohhh.....and have fun upgrading you mother's, your grandmother's, your sister's, your cousin's, and your girlfriend's computers that are just 2 years old when Vista comes out. It's good you all like to have computers from Dell that you can easily rip open and upgrade and customize - YOU ARE GONNA NEED IT! - wstrucke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9http://www.duggmirror.com/apple/Is_Windows_On_a_Mac_Really_Drawing_in_New_Users/
- Electroz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12EtherGnat,
A Pentium D 2.8 is a $200 processor
A Core Duo 1.83 is almost $400
Not to mention it costs more to make a smaller and more compact motherboard for the iMac, In which DELL uses proprietary Intel boards which are dirt cheap.
An X600 Video card is almost 2 years old and haven't been sold in 1.5 years as they were taken over by the x700's Making them about $75 or less because they're just clearing out old stock.
An X1600 is way newer and blows it out of the water. Also costs about $175
The ram price difference is $40
The modem is $10
So, there's $250 in the parts right there
I don't think a $200 premium is too much for the compact and sleek design of the iMac. Especially considering the quality of product between the 2 companies.
And I'd like to see you pick up a dell computer and monitor in one arm and walk away with it.
Oh, and I also like how you left out all the other major components. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Now add software to that price
- Jeffrey903, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I just ordered a MBP this weekend. Unfortunately it's going to take a week to get here from China. I will be running Windows XP in Parallels (not Boot Camp), but I already had a previous Mac and I was sold on the intel processor, in addition to windows.
- cypherz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I'm glad you're looking into Parallels. IMO, dual-booting is useless on a day-to-day basis. (Except for gaming). When I need the occasional Windows program, re-booting is a real PITA. On the other-hand, Parallels is really handy: it starts really quickly and if the VM in question is set to auto-start, then as soon as you start Parallels, Windows wakes up and there you are! Almost instant Windows! As soon as I get a valid image for SuSE 10.1, I'll have my favorite three OS's on one machine! w00t!
- dwemer, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12I own a PC, I am currently running windows and the latest flight release of Kubuntu in VMware. I have not "wanted to own a mac forever" and I don't give a ***** how shiny the GUI is. I like PC's, I can build them easily(and cheaply), upgrade them easily and overclock them easily.
I won't be running out to buy a new mac. - fox, on 04/11/2009, -2/+9Windows was all I knew until 6 months ago (19yrs old btw) - first real expierence with OSX was OSX86 and numerous visits to the Apple Store - I was first interested when they switched to Intel. As soon as I heard you could dualboot with xp via onamac.net I ordered a MBP. I figured if it didn't work out I could just run xp all the time. then day I got it, they released boot camp. even better..
the result: i did install xp....eventually, about 3 weeks after i got it - just for the hell of it.I also sold my PC. OSX is a great OS. I have no need to boot into xp other than to show people that it can. Now my brother just sold his Dell to get a macbook. I am always recommending Apple to people now. - Quix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Geez Geterix, three iHater posts on one story? TrollDifferent.
- DevanJedi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I agree great article- and I've been seeing similar signs myself.
- playedalive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11Well lets see, about 3 hours ago i was on the apple sote and purchased myself a brand new macbook, never owned a mac but now the price is right and the software is there for me.
- frem001, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6not comparable, not a core duo chip.
- jpt62089, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Right now I am using Windows, I own no Apple hardware aside from my iPod. Before April I wanted to get a Mac really bad, but I wasn't too sure about it because all my games and software are all for Windows. Sure they had the user created hack to install Windows, but I would rather not mess with that type of thing.
Once Apple released Boot Camp I decided I was going to switch to Apple hardware 100%, yet still have Windows on there for when I want to play Battlefield 2 or Half Life 2
In my opinion, Apple made a very smart move. And who knows? Maybe Mac OS X 10.5 will be able to run Windows software natively? - aplardi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7People are really attracted to Macs for the GUI and the ease of use. In my experience it isn't the specs, but what it can do for you that will sell a computer. My dad was pro Windows since 3.11. Now that he does more things like use a Digital Camera, and saw how easy iPhoto makes it he is buying one himself.
But would he have bought a Mac before? No. Because some programs are indeed windows specific.
But now DualBoot and vaster In-OS emulation is possible, he will get one. And I'm buying a MacBook for college, then again i always wanted one.
The Mac Mini is a great Windows and Mac OS X Machine, and it will sell. It would sell MORE if Apple would sell it with BootCamp and XP on it already, but that's about as likely as them giving away iPods. - apetrie, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Its hilarious how they have a nerdy guy in a business suit as the PC user and a young guy in casual clothes and a goatee as the MAC user. Ahh propaganda and stereotypes, the modern way! I like both for different reasons, so I'm really not on one side of the fence or the other just to be clear. In the next year I'll probably buy a laptop and I'm one of those that are thinking about a MAC as a result of all this.
- thegreyfox, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Why don't you hookup ur MacBook to the 20". I'm sure it looks pretty.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10Speaking of Dell, has anyone noticed the 20" LCDs they're giving away for FREE with $1000+ PCs? That deal is pretty hard to beat, even if you custom-build/OC.
- Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -12/+17Yea the are almost exactly the same except for 5 things:
(1) The iMac has no big tower taking up all that space, it has everything built-in to the display (e.g. CD's & DVD's slide in to the side of the display).
(2) More importantly the iMac will most likely get no viruses ever!
(3) The iMac looks better.
(4) The iMac comes with iLife, which makes it much easier and much nicer to use.
(5) The iMac comes with Mac OS X, which kicks Windows ass. ;) - benitojuarez, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11wasnt there an article about this earlier today?
http://ctrlaltdel-online.com/comics/20060513.jpg - dark1152, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Here's one solution: http://www.geocities.com/pronto4u/applemouse.html but that's just the first entry that comes up via google. I am sure there is a much better driver out there to let you do the 2 finger right click. Just search for it and I am sure you'll be very pleased with what you find.
- TeleCarlos, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Well, since we are sharing stories...
I got iTunes just cuz it came bundled with a Quicktime upgrade that I needed. Sort of used it and explored it and after a while ended up liking it a whoile lot. Then got an iPod (60g Photo) and just by using it for a while came to appreciate how cool and nice this products are! Then got a iBook which recently parted with my girlfriend and now I'm dying to getr my hands on the MacBook! Yes, I own a Dell and had built my own DAW with Asus boards, Atlon XP and all that stuff. No more of that for me, I'm tired of opening crap up and I can actually afford to get Macs now so, It is Mac all the way for me! Yes, I think I am officially a fan boy!!! How come I never loved my DIY AMD box or my Dell??? My Apple stuff "treats me right!" - Zorkon, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10Welcome to the club. You aren't the only one. I just sold a MBP to a customer two weeks ago who asked us to install Bootcamp & XP Pro on the machine.
She came in this week begging us to take it off - she's spent the past week and a half in OS X and never wants to go back to Windows. We've had 6 or 7 other MBP customers in the store who have had the same experience.
Apple is being very sneaky. People buy the Mac thinking "Great, I'll spend all my time in Windows, and if I ever get bored, I can play around with this OS X thing" ... then, as they browse around they hear about things like "fewer viruses" and "Delicious Library! Omnigraffle!" ... and so they boot into OS X and try these things ... and then discover that they can use it for all their computing needs. - rtoo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9I can't speak for everyone, but the ONLY reason I never bought a Apple was because I'm a gamer and OS X offers an iota of Windows does. Now I can have the best of both worlds.. a great OS and the ability to play games, I'm buying a MBPRO!
- DavoMrMac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I really feel that Windows will draw a lot more users to the Mac fold. Hopefully, this will also give new users the opportunity to try out the Mac OS and stick with it.
A sort of weaning period, for new users to discover that they can live without XP and just how much can be acheived with OSX. More often than not PC users do not realise you can get MS Office for the Mac, they also are surprised to learn about the great iLife apps that you get for free.
2006 will be a good year for the Mac. - geekdreams, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@MacSuxWindozSux
If you need to upgrade every part in your machine and swap it into a better-looking case, maybe you shouldn't have bought a Dell.
BTW, the larger the Mac, the easier it is to access all those components. PowerMacs are famously convenient to open, maybe you should check one out if you like to tinker. It's not as if Macs use magical parts from some elvin workshop, they use industry-standard drives, memory, cables, etc. Besides PPC motherboards/processors, the only things that fit your desciption are graphics cards which need Mac-specific drivers to run. - mateo60, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Thats was the final straw on why I finally broke down and bought my first Mac recently (Macbook).
I know that I always have a sort of a "safety net" of XP if I need it. I'm actually quite surprised how little I use XP now. - dark1152, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8I'm surprised that as a software developer you weren't already interested in Mac due to it's UNIX foundations. For any software developer, the Intel Macs are the ultimate development machines. With the ability to run OS X, Windows, and various flavors of Linux, there's nothing you can't developer for. You can be a TRUE cross-platform developer. I personally am really excited about the Parallels multi-operating system environment that has been showing up all over the Internet (with a great video using the motion sensor to change OS's). Write code in one OS and then switch to the others to run their respective compilers! :)
- mathieul, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8I tried both boot camp and parallels (now in Release Candidate), and I must say that Parallels works just great. Great if:
- you have enough memory (min 1Gb, 2Gb awesome),
- you don't do gaming (then bootcamp or native mac game is the only option),
- you're ready to pay an extra $50 (which is really a great deal considering the software).
And like oGMo says, the affordable Mac to compare to Dell is the mac mini. -
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