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53 Comments
- CosmicJustice, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This would be a great way to shut down all sorts of web discussions. Sony could offer 12k to anyone who figures out how to shut down their rootkit. MS could pay big bucks for methods to shut down their DRM. This would essentially kill the rapid spread of information that we've grown accustomed to.
- chickan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What is it with these ideologues needing to defend Capitalism to the very last breath. "Competition is good for us all the time". Please, it just is not so. It's only good for us in certain circumstances and is not always the best way of doing things. You're problem with cooperation is unfounded. Cooperation exists in nature. Parents, children and closer relatives absolutely benefit from cooperation in nature. I think the problem you have is that there is no such thing as altruism in nature. The thing you should remember is that cooperation can exist without any of the members being strictly altruistic.
Cooperation can mathematically be better then a ruthless competition. You might want to read about "The Prisoners Dilemma" and other problems in Game Theory. It's not as simple as always use cooperation or always use competition as far as mathematics is concerned. You should at least acknowledge the possibility that in this instance competition is not as efficient as cooperation. It does rather seam that it is indeed the case. - joevandyk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Without money (and greed) OSx86 and this project wouldn't even exist. Conclusions drawn from limited input and insight are often lacking."
Huh? Was the Linux on a dreamcast project driven by money? Was the Linux on an ipod project driven by money? Was the GCC project driven by money? Is any GNU software driven primarily by money? I don't think so. - Salmonax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Interesting idea. Corporations could just dangle a little cash incentive to users who crack their systems and watch people stop cracking them successfully, or do so much less often. Digg.
- rjg1021, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If you can dual-boot Windows and Linux, why do you need to dual boot OS X and Windows? Is it purely to show up the hot girl in your anthropology class? Because I showed her my Lin/Win dual-boot and she wasn't impressed.
- sud0n1m, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Also, to all you geniuses who think there is no money in Open Source, who do you think gets a penny when you use that nice little google search built into Mozilla Firefox? Open Source companies and those who contribute to Open Source (Red Hat, Novell, IBM) all make money somehow, otherwise they would not be able to give stuff away. Maybe not directly from you, but somebody pays for their efforts.
- sud0n1m, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The author runs a website teaching people how to install pirated copies of Apple's intellectual property. Unfortunately he doesnt live in a society where people need to be paid for their time and for the work they produce.
- JQP123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Without money (and greed) OSx86 and this project wouldn't even exist. Conclusions drawn from limited input and insight are often lacking.
This story strikes me as being rather nieve and childlike. Imagine a child experiencing the wonders of mother nature by watching a group of lions rip an antelope to pieces. Based on this limited experience, the child will almost certainly conclude that nature is mean, nasty and cruel. Yet the child him/herself is very much a product of the same natural system. - foxhoundadmin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1lmao! so true, geminitojanus. glad to see not every digg user is a complete moron.
to everybody else,
STOP IT WITH THE CHILDISH COMMENTS, like "d0z dosnt belong n a mac!!1" or "y wud u waant 2 pay a billion dollars for a mac wen u can install mac on a dell??"
maybe some mac owners would like to install windows on their machine. i'm sure there's a lot out there. also, maybe some windows users would "switch" to a mac if they could use windows as well. THERE! two very simple, clear as crystal answers for you mac, and anti-mac fanboys out there. DAMN! - inkswamp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Easy (partial) solutions for these situations.
1. Prize money can only go to teams, not individuals (must specify number of people on team.)
2. Prize money given out proportionately based on how far each team gets in the process. That is, no one team gets the whole pot, but if Team A wins, then they get 60% and the other teams get to divvy up the rest.
3. Rules stipulate that the teams must open up all of their info at the end of the contest. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Wow. I cant believe I didn't see this before. He is absolutely correct. WOW. Very informative article.
- Vryz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0At least the contest expired in March, and the money gets donated to the EFF. After that, people will finally start cooperating.
- cube5, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0good read, and i hope this issue gets worked out because i would love to dual boot OSx and XP. 1 for games and one for everything else.
- Retrograde, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Their server is still chugging along, but you can use this Coral version instead.
http://www.osx86project.org.nyud.net:8090/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=127&Itemid=2 - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0People on Macs would
install XP on their boxes
but people with PC's would prolly
never buy the apple hardware
that everyone claims would happen
if you could dual boot both OS'S - cranium, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1The profit motive has been behind every significant advance in technology since and including the vacuum tube. No linux is NOT a significant advance in technology, it's a freebie me-too unix.
- Retrograde, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Without money (and greed) OSx86 and this project wouldn't even exist. Conclusions drawn from limited input and insight are often lacking."
I'm not sure what you mean by that - I don't think that they're running the OSx86 Project for greed. - spoonman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Wow, perfect examination in my opinion in the article. Digg.
As for "the profit motive being behind every single advance in technology", I present: Firefox, Apache, BSD (the foundation of OSX)... the Internet (originally a military project), email, I could go on.
Also, Linux is not a significant advance in technology but dual booting XP on a Mac is? - MrThi3f, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I cant agree more. Even though sure the website has brought together dedicated members the money seperates them apart. If you were offered a chance at 12 grand would you want to share it? Surely not you would want to keep it all to yourself. Sure you can form a team but what if when one team member decides that they did more then the rest. Possibly once the prize expires in march (though without a doubt the reward will be extended longer) members, hackers, and enthusiasts will join together and crack the double booting problem.
- beagle72, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0There seems to be a fascinating culture clash between the Mac community and the "hacker" community. I don't necessarily mean "hacker" in the malicious sense. This clash comes up time and again in these threads, and seems to be intensifying with Apple's move to Intel, pushing these separate worlds closer together. In the hacker mindset, pursuing myriad permutations of projects -- running X on Y, booting B on A, patching C to run D -- is not always a means to an end, but an end in itself. It is done for the process, for the engineering. It is done, often, because it is there. Many interesting human achievements have come from this motivation.
Strangely, despite their "Think Different" slogan, it seems that many traditional Mac users hold very conservative views about technology. They wonder "why do this?" "why bother with that?" The refrain heard over and over -- "why not just buy a mac?" The subtext being, why not take the easiest road available? Why would your needs and interests differ from mine? This represents the very homogenous mindset that critics of Apple and their community latch onto.
Ultimately the culture clash comes from hackers being reductionists and Apple loyalists being holistic. To hackers the "magic" of computers is that there is no magic. These are machines and not greater than the sums of their parts. So how can we tinker with and recombine their parts to make new and different machines? To the holistics, the machine is greater than the sum of its parts, and reducing it to recombinable silicon bits is a violation of its 'soul'.
I would caution the holistics to recognize that many of the innovations integrated into the 'soul' of their machines grew out of the tinkerings and recombinations pursued by hackers. You could almost call the process 'darwinian'. Ah,the smell of irony in the morning. - yanked, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I've been arguing this for weeks now. Similar arguments were made about the NASA space-flight contest. One suggested ameliorative was to offer second, third, and fourth prizes to encourage collaboration, but it's not so clear how to objectively award those. Basically, the lifeblood of Linux and open-source is that there's no money in it, only glory--and the latter can be spread around indefinitely.
- knid, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"...they've already proven their too stupid to use a real OS by buying a Mac."
Oh the delicious irony! - weiran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0A very well written article. It's offered an insight into something I didn't realise was happening.
Digg++. - The_Decryptor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I think the main reason people are not dual booting XP and OS X on the Intel Macs is...
1. Intel Macs don't support booting from "normal" bootable pc CD's (e.g. El Torito or UDF)
2. XP does not have an EFI boot loader
3. XP doesn't run on EFI BIOS's
But hey, that's just my opinion. - oepapel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"The closest that Windows belongs in a Mac box is under VMWare or VirtualPC when it gets ported. "
Wrong. I currently write cross platform software. I have 2 laptops: A PC that boots XP and Linux and a Powerbook that boots OS/X and Linux. That's right, I have 2 Linuxes (Linuxi ?) because of endian issues between the different processors. I'd LOVE to drop down to one laptop that can boot XP, Linux and OS/X. No emulation box (VMWare, Virtual PC) has given me access to my hardware devices and the speeds were apalling.
I could get a PC and install cracked OS/X on it but Apple (1) doesn't license it that way so it's no good for work and (2) they are actively breaking the cracks like they actively broke the FairPlay cracks.
Apple has said that it won't actively stop anyone from booting other OS's (they never have before). The EFI hurdle is more MS's fault than Apple's. MS will allow me to buy a license and install it on a Mac. Linux is happy no matter what. So the only legal route is to buy a Macbook Pro. It really is the only laptop that can legally run the Big3 OS's.
I think that this is truly where Apple dropped the ball. They should have worked with MS to make sure that their hardware could boot XP. It would have been as simple as adding a legacy BIOS to the EFI.
Then, they could market their new machines as "Universal". They already call their software "Universal". This alone would make it the programmer's ideal development platform. A triple boot system (or a triple OS system with a hypervisor) that would lower the barriers to cross platform development for all. And if the programmers got their feet wet developing Cocoa apps, they might just like it and suddenly there would be an explosion of OS/X apps.
It would also mean that their "switch" campaign could say "buy a Mac and keep one foot in XP in case you need that psychological crutch or play games". You now have Apple competing with the Dell's and the Gateways and kicking their ass with a lock out spec that they can't match. - WRoach, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0To continue on what inkswamp said, register a team, project or foundation with a clear statement of what you'll do with the money. OS contributers are good, charitable and honest people. So IMHO if a well known OS contributer leads the team there are are no reasons people would not join in.
- Lewie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Agreed Chickan!
Think of all the technological breakthroughs we may have had if, say, Apple and Microsoft worked together on an OS, or any two of the damn phone manufacturers teamed up (I swear, if SE and Motorola got together, we'd have kick-ass thin phones, with iTunes, a 1mpx+ camera, and a useable OS!). - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"The other way around (running OS X on a non-Mac with a BIOS) seems to have been a relatively easy hack mainly because of the way OS X is designed and organized (IE: not an utter engineering and organizational disaster that is Windows)" -zodieman
By "OS X is designed" I'm sure you mean BSD? - NtroP, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The only way I can see to get around something like this is to offer the award to a charity or some cause (EFF, Cancer/AIDS research, etc.) This still provides incentive, but gets people working together.
- inkhead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0the nasa space contest is a REALLY STUPID EXAMPLE. nobody did it for money! The prize was for 200,000. The cost of even building something to exhibit was over 2,000,000 (million). Nobody did it for the prize. The winning team spend over 12 million dollars. The 200,0000 didn't even cover the cost of storage for the prize they built.
- m99stump, on 07/29/2008, -0/+0We aren't dual booting because using Windows instead of OS X makes it totally pointless to buy a Mac.
The closest that Windows belongs in a Mac box is under VMWare or VirtualPC when it gets ported. Booting Windows will not only rob you of a premium computer, but you don't support Mac software development that way (gamers I look at you! you must be strong, its getting better!) and then nothing improves and its just a circle of crap - losvedir, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Maybe it would work better if after the project was successfully completed, the people involved got to vote on how to split the pot. That way, those who contributed the most would get a lot of the money. And if you figured out something really cool that helped, then you could get a shot at some.
- spamdies, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I would have thought the lack of a target audience would be the real factor in slowing down that progect.
- zodieman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0How about the fact that nobody has been able to get Windows XP to boot under an EFI system??? Never mind the pot of money as a reward, sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks...
Vista on the other has support EFI booting, so I'm perfectly happy to wait till the end of the year for that.
The other way around (running OS X on a non-Mac with a BIOS) seems to have been a relatively easy hack mainly because of the way OS X is designed and organized (IE: not an utter engineering and organizational disaster that is Windows) - JQP123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Chickan wrote:
"You should at least acknowledge the possibility that in this instance competition is not as efficient as cooperation. It does rather seam that it is indeed the case."
As a defender of capitalism, I have no problem acknowledging this. The rules of life are often based on multi-valued logic. In other words, things aren't always as simple as "good" or "bad".
The established goal here is to win the cash prize. The author is frustrated and upset because he wants to pursue a different goal.
To use a sports analogy, the game here is American football but he wants to play soccer. Because the game isn't the one that he prefers, he concludes that American football is a "bad" game.
All rather nieve and childlike. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Good read.
Having MS and Apple working together is not a good idea. Apple is ahead in innovation and looks because it has such a small market share. Small companies do not have the market share or the capital to compete with such large companies. For them to stay on top they need to be different, and like I said innovative and ahead.
I don't think people would buy a Mac to run Windows anyway. There are plenty of nice looking PCs out there, which are cheaper than Macs.
If they get Windows to boot on MacIntel cool. My preferred OS on a Mac would still be Mac OS X, if not my only OS... - Retrograde, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I'm sure you're proving his point. :)
- oepapel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0"At least the contest expired in March"
Are you posting from the future? If you get a second, can you post the winning lottery numbers? Oh crap, by the time you see this and respond, the lottery will have been over. Damn! I hate temporal paradoxes! - Rice, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Nice story Retrograde.
- JQP123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0"I'm not sure what you mean by that - I don't think that they're running the OSx86 Project for greed."
Apple created OSX to make money --- i.e. greed. From the sound of it, many of the people working on this project are doing it for the money --- i.e. greed. Were it not for Apple's greed, OSX wouldn't exist. Without OSX, there would be no project.
This project owes it very existence to the same greed that the author of the story finds so distasteful.
- Retrograde, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Indeed CosmicJustice.
- geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0"I think the main reason people are not dual booting XP and OS X on the Intel Macs is...
1. Intel Macs don't support booting from "normal" bootable pc CD's (e.g. El Torito or UDF)
2. XP does not have an EFI boot loader
3. XP doesn't run on EFI BIOS's
But hey, that's just my opinion."
And it's a damned good one at that. $12k or not, it's simply not a task to be undertaken by one person and completed in any reasonable amount of time. Sure, offering an award could provide this sort of "all for themselves" attitude, but you know, it's just not something that's easily done.
I should have started a site to collect bets on what this guy's going to do with the $12k after the project fails. He /says/ he'll give it back. But, because he used PayPal there's really nothing stopping him. Can't wait until he vanishes and I can laugh my ass off at every contributor. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0THIS IS THE EPIDIEMY OF APPLE!!!
- vertigoblue, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0seriously, as soon as i can dual boot windows on one of those Intel macs... I'm buying one!
XP for games and OSX for everything else... - Chaucer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Great article. He's right on. Now, anyone want to tell me what they've tried so far? :-)
- 0Troy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0"Also, Linux is not a significant advance in technology but dual booting XP on a Mac is?"
Exactly.
These little clique-ish groups want to accomplish odd tasks and claim it's in the spirit of advancing technology. Well sure, I guess it is. But would you call modifying a mouse's firmware to make it a fax machine advanced technology, or a parlor trick? - kindrobot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Hire a legal team? 4.5 million a year.
Take down a movement? 12, 000.
Telling your story at cocktail parties years later?
Priceless. - karamba_kid, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0"...they've already proven their too stupid to use a real OS by buying a Mac."
I think Linux is running on the mac already. ;-? Not to say OSX isn't a great OS, it's much better than that Microsoft stuff. - patrickloggins, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0Server's already slowing down..
- ldenman, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1stfu vonskippy. Stop being such a damn lamer.
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