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- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -70/+136The rest of the world ignores france, why cant Apple?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -24/+67So now downloading music onto an iPod is being billed as a right in France, eh? The government wants to coerce Apple into changing its business practices and Apple is resisting them. Let the people of France make the choice. If there are millions of them that want to download music from iTunes, then let them.
Isn't France a free, capitalist country?
Yes, Apple has a monopoly on purchasing songs and downloading them to iPods. Luckily for Apple, they also have a monopoly on iPod production. Let France buy Creative products if they don't want to let Apple in. - Drahknon, on 10/12/2007, -21/+56Oh come on... we're not talking about mere conversion. We're talking about converting protected music into something playable (without losing quality) on any format. DRM is dumb, and France called out Apple with good reason. When I buy a CD, I can convert it into any format and make as many copies as I like. With downloaded, DRM music, it's much more difficult.
- ravenmuffin, on 10/12/2007, -4/+36As I understand it, France wants all stores to be interoperable with all players.
But what I don't understand is if the PlaysForSure services (ie, all the stores which use Microsoft's proprietary rental software) will have to become compatible with the iPod or if they will have to pull out of France too?
Because the only way France's law can work is if:
a) Apple licenses Microsoft's proprietary PlaysForSure DRM
b) Microsoft licenses Apple's proprietary FairPlay DRM.
c) Both Apple and Microsoft remove their DRM.
d) An independent organization, like the original Compact Disc consortium or the MPEG group, creates a new, independent DRM solution which everyone can license.
Problems:
(a) Apple would be forced to use Microsoft software, which is bad because the iPod would be able to innovate as fast. It is also unfair as it forces a company to use a competitor's technology when they don't want to.
(b) Microsoft never licenses a competitor's technology because they are use to forcing their own standard on the market and winning. For this reason they are not including MPEG-4 in Vista.
(c) The record companies wouldn't like this, and if Apple or Microsoft tried it, they'd yank their right to sell their music.
(d) Strikes me as the only workable solution, but it would require a massive cooperative effort.
I'm no expert, but it does seem that France hasn't thought this through. - bpopp, on 10/12/2007, -10/+42>>ANY song purchased through iTunes can EASILY be converted to MP3, Orgg, or even WMP.
It's not exactly "easy". You have to burn it, then rip it, then convert it (using Apple's iTunes, BTW). On Linux this isn't an option. You'd have to break the law by reverse engineering Apple's DRM. And that's the point. You shouldn't have to break the law to play music you paid for on a competitor's device/OS.
I love how the same people who bitch about MIcorosoft's aggressive marketing will sell their soul to Apple for $1.99. - weirdone, on 10/12/2007, -20/+46France isn't really capitalist. They're socialist. As seen by their jobs laws which fiercely try to protect their poor workers instead of letting the free market right itself and look where that got them...20%+ unemployment and 50% among urban youth. ha.
- joeyjojo, on 10/12/2007, -12/+37"DRM is dumb, and France called out Apple with good reason. "
Why is Apple blamed for DRM? The issue is the RIAA. - Udon, on 10/12/2007, -4/+29The cause of the France vs USA schism lies in the fact that they are both very similar when it comes down to what they think about themselves and how they want others to act. Due to this they can not stand each other. I've lived in both of these countries and I really like them both.
I had a funny discussion in Texas with a guy once who told me how all French elements should be stripped away from USA. He mentioned the statue of liberty as a fine example of such American symbols which represent everything he believes in. He did not find it funny when I told him that it in fact was a gift from France. He didn't know about it. - CeltiCowboy, on 10/12/2007, -28/+52As soon as it said that Apple refused to let songs downloaded from the iTunes music store to be converted to another format, I quit reading. Another story written by someone who totally does not get it. ANY song purchased through iTunes can EASILY be converted to MP3, Orgg, or even WMP.
Where are the fact checkers? Why can't they find a writer who knows what they are talking about?
No Digg because of the stupidily of the article's author. - ravenmuffin, on 10/12/2007, -10/+30DRM is dumb, but it's the record companies' requirement for selling music.
If Apple wants to sell music, they have no choice but to use it, just like the companies that license the less popular Microsoft format.
And don't give me the allofmp3.com argument - "if they can sell without DRM, why can't everyone?" - because none of the money you pay there gets to the artists.
What would be good is if the record companies were told (by law) that DRM was inconvenient to users' fair use frights and must be abandoned.
But we all know the lobbying power of the RIAA... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+27I have an ipod, but have never purchased anything from the itunes store. I never will, because I dont like DRM. That said, I dont need a nanny government "looking out for me" - if Apple wants to sell music through their online store (that they barely break even on) for their music player, then they should have the right to do so.
Its not like Apple has a monopoly on music. You can buy it ANYWHERE. If you choose to buy it from Apple (or any other online retailer) then you will have to deal with the restrictions. Its YOUR choice.
Governments need to be put back in their place every so often. This is one of those times. - Stockwell, on 10/12/2007, -12/+27If France starts, the rest of the E.U will follow.
And rightly so, the consumer is king - theblackgecko, on 10/12/2007, -31/+46@RexKwando
A lot of it comes from France's actions leading up to the war in Iraq. Support or oppose the decision of the United States, one must admit that the French, and specifically Jacques Chirac, were a real pain in the @$$ for the United States during such an important time. - nuclearpenguins, on 10/12/2007, -9/+22If I were to say bad things about Israel I would get downDugg into oblivion, but why is it ok to mock the French then?
Hurray for double-standards! - Phyltre, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17Having music only intended to play on certain (licensed) players was never a good idea, and I hope it dies off soon because of this. I hate DRM in general, but I hate DRM that is only meant to work on certain players even more.
It's obviously just another format war, where the consumer can only lose. I really wish America was harder on effective monopolies and anti-competitive practices. - FuzzyCat, on 10/12/2007, -7/+19Curious. It appears Apple fans don't mind DRM, if it's Apple's DRM. If we MUST have DRM then we MUST demand interoperable DRM. This is a perfect chance to actually force the DRM'ing mofo's (all of them) into a system where if I buy a song/video/whatever it'll work on any of my devices. Get behind France and push the point forward. They're actually doing us a favour. Remember when they wanted us to use those stupid 36 hour dvd's [the ones that died after being exposed to air - sorry can't remember the name, that info must have been erased by being exposed to air]? We just didn't buy them and they died...
..and stop yabbing about the analog loophole... - Lumiras, on 10/12/2007, -9/+21France may have millions of iPod users (though that figure seems quite high), but other countries are giving them hundreds of millions. France makes up about 2% of iPod and iTunes revenues, so Apple is not going to fight this, they'll probably just fold up shop and leave. If they concede to France, other countries will follow suit and then Apple will have a big problem on their hands
Not that I'm against Apple having this mess on their hands, as I would really like the ability to listen to my music and watch my TV shows from the ITMS on any player, but Apple won't want to do that - ErrandboyOfDoom, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11labels should forgo DRM as a req't, the smart ones already have.
"don't give me the allofmp3 argument... because none of the money you pay there gets to the artists."
Actually it does, through ROMS. But even that aside, what about eMusic, which provides tracks DRM free and unquestionably legal and unquestionably pays fair royalties? eMusic works great for a lot of record companies and artists, the only reason larger labels don't sign on is FUD. - joeyjojo, on 10/12/2007, -14/+23"What if MS suddenly decided that you could only run software purchased from MS on Windows? You don't even own Windoze, but you'd still be crapping your pants, lol!"
Uhh...WM DRM *does* only work on windows. - ajwillys, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Buying music for me involves three decisions (in order)
1) Do I like the music?
2) Am I guaranteed I can listen to this anywhere I want ... even 10,15,20 years from now?
3) Will this seriously mess up any of my stuff? (Thank Sony for that one)
This is why all the music on my pc, in my car, and on my iPod is un-DRM'ed MP3. - geekee, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Better analogy. What if Microsoft made it difficult for other OSes to exchange data with their server OS? That's exactly what the EU is suing them over now, and it's exactly the same case as Apple making it difficult to play music you buy from them on other hardware. So drop both cases or prosecute both, but don't claim Apple is right and Microsoft is wrong.
- NineTailedFox, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11weirdone, overall unemployment in France is at 10%, not 20%, and the 50% figure applies not to urban youth as a whole, but specifically to those living in "rough" suburban housing projects. Overall youth unemployment is at 23%.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june06/france_03-27.html
http://economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6740337 - rv8ch, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Governments all over the world, particularly in the US, pass lots of laws to protect companies' interests. Here we see France trying to pressure Apple to do something for the consumers. I don't agree with most things the French government does, but think it's a good thing to try to encourage competition.
- mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -9/+16"Got it a bit twisted dude. The French government is sticking up for its peoples rights and ours in the long run. I commend France for taking a stand and pity you cause you sound like an apple fanboy."
Buying DRM free music is not a right. France can feel free to require it, if Apple wants to do business there, but it's not like the French people should feel entitled to download DRM free music. It's a service, not an innate human right. Get off your high horse. - MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11Burning/ripping is a completely unacceptable solution. It takes too much time, for one, but more importantly: it results in quality loss.
- RexKwando, on 10/12/2007, -40/+47Where is this anti-French movement stemming from?
- tylerl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Apple WILL ignore France if France trys to destroy Apple's business model. The whole reason for iTunes' existance is to promote iPod sales. iTunes is not a money-making operation, it's an iPod advertising operation.
France, despite what the numbers may seem to imply, makes up a statistically insignificant portion of the global market, and it's not worth throwing away a working business model to placate some foreigners. Apple doesn't WANT to lose the business of an entire country, but if it costs too much to keep them, then that's the way it will have to be.
Apple won't cut off France, but France might cut itself off. - prockcore, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8that's complete *****. Apple loves DRM.. they proved that last month when they called the French law "piracy".
- drsnacks, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10"Uhh...WM DRM *does* only work on windows."
That's not the same thing at all. Microsoft licenses the WMA format to be sold by other companies. If Microsoft had a MS Music Store that dominated the online music industry and the songs could only be played on Windows or the XBox, the courts would be all over them. - chad78, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8You can rip a CD in Linux - but you *can't* buy music from the iTunes Music Store. Actually, there are ways, but there is no direct way to do so through Apple.
- stringycheese, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I agree with you. I actually have an iPod and my wife has an iRiver. We won't buy songs from iTunes because they won't work on the iRiver. And yes I know how to burn a cd and rip mp3 files. At that point, I might as well just buy the cd at the store, then I can have the liner notes and album art, not to mention having a lossless copy of the music.
And by the way, the itunes files working only ipod is called vendor lock in and it is considered anti-competitive practices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in
In economics, vendor lock-in, also known as proprietary lock-in, lock-in, or the Pottersville pattern, is a situation in which a customer is dependent on a vendor for products and services and cannot move to another vendor without substantial switching costs, real and/or perceived. By the creation of these costs to the customer, lock-in favors the company (vendor) at the expense of the consumer. Lock-in costs may create a barrier to entry in a market that if great enough to result in an effective monopoly, may result in antitrust actions from the relevant authorities (the FTC in the US). - willcode4beer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I tend to be pretty pro-French (they did help fund our little revolution) and anti-Apple (business practices) but, I'm afraid I have to side with Apple on this one.
Why not let the consumers decide what they want?
If Apple doesn't meet what the consumers demand, then the consumers will not give them money. This seems pretty elementary.
Maybe I was asleep when access to bad pop music became a "right".
Same applies to the US, if you don't want DRM'd media, don't buy it.
duh! - jinexile, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Don't be so sure. All France is asking for is an DRM that allows for interoptability between all devices and they are fighting it tooth and nail. Doesn't sound like they want to get rid of their DRM at all.
- arnaudh, on 10/12/2007, -9/+14The French government is a conservative, right-wing government, you ignorant moron
- fresh101, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You miss the point. If you say stuff like:
blacks are stupid
Jews are greedy
Mexicans are lazy
Americans are fat
You are prejudging an entire group of people based one stereotypes and/or propaganda, thus the term prejudice. Get it.
So what makes any of the hurtful statements made about the french any less prejudice than these. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Of course, how many politicians do you know that think technology through. Its like trying to ask them to think through if Steven Hawking was right on his Big Bang theories. All they're thinking is that they can't control what content their citizens can listen to. Is this a question of monopolistic practices or of free speech?!?!?
- happbando, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6it's a shame that france is protrayed as an awkward country, indeed. i agree, it's not. but pretending that a lack of iTMS in france would make a difference is just that. france is a very small part of a very big, iPod hungry world.
- nuhrd, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8"The French government is a conservative, right-wing government, you ignorant moron"
By European standards it is, to Americans its far far left. - weirdone, on 10/12/2007, -10/+15"You know say what you want about France but here's a country who's people stands up for what they believe in. When was the last time you saw Americans in the street en masse protesting anything. We cant even be bothered to counterprotest illegal aliens who have invaded our country or the politicians who seem to have forgotten who they represent."
Have you been living in a cave? There were like 2 million people that shut down multiple cities around the country protesting for immigrants' rights this past week. If you live in the DC area, you literally can't walk anywhere on the weekend without seeing some sort of protest going on. Anti-IMF, worldbank protests, anti-war, anti-bush, pro-immigrant rights, the ever popular abortion protests.
Maybe you're just ignoring any protests that aren't for things you believe in. Why would people counter-protest the immigrants' rights crap? It's 11 million illegals, that's like 1/30 the population, who cares enough to take off from work or time from their weekend to protest these people?
Meanwhile, the French are protesting a bill that would've adopted a policy that every other country in the modern world have already adopted centuries ago. What a quaint idea that a person could actually be fired from their job without being given a reason within the first year or two of their employment? This is why their economy sucks ass. Not because they're anti-big business and monopolies but because they work 30-35 hour work weeks and then bitch about it and they can theoretically do nothing at their jobs because they are under contract always and get the equivalent to a teacher's tenure. - sebnukem, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7RE mrASSMAN:
"we hate france because they are arrogant *****. they are a country built on fascism and they hate anything and everybody that is not their own and consider everything they do superior and too sophisticated for "stupid americans" to understand."
LOL I'm writing this down! You sure illustraded "stupid americans" very well.
"i'm going on a trip to europe this summer and i plan to avoid france by all means."
Thank you, appreciate it. - WDot, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7One problem with Apple's DRM is that it can screw you out of your music if you're not careful. My whole immediate family shares the same Itunes account. So 5 authorized computers happened pretty fast. Now, we wiped and loaded one of our computers. We backed up all our music before hand, but forgot to Deauthorize. So now I have 30 bucks worth of Itunes music that I can't play. Sure there's a Deauthorize All Accounts option, but you can only use it once a year. Considering I've made this mistake before, I won't be able to play my music until December. =/
If it wasn't for that limitation I wouldn't have had a problem with Fairplay. Yeah, some of you may think I'm stupid or something for forgetting to Deauthorize my computers TWICE, but why should I have to think about it?
Now I'm in the process of buying CD's/singles of the music I still have backed up, but can't play. I still like Itunes, just not the music store. Simply put, I'm never using it again. - fresh101, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Many of the comments here are borderline racism. Go back and replace the word french with ***** or Jew or spic and you'll see what I mean. It's this sheep driven, follow the crowd, mob mentality that is the source of many of today's problems in America.
- ravenmuffin, on 10/12/2007, -20/+24I always shake my head when I read stuff like that too.
I have songs bought from the iTunes Music Store playing on my PSP and my cellphone. Even though JHymn was broken by iTunes 6, burning to CD-RW then ripping back is pretty easy. There are other methods too. - WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7France was just about the ONLY western Euro country to stand up against the bush crime family when they were starting their long-planned wars (mass murdering campaigns).
Americans who bash France are just lackeys of the warmakers who have destroyed the US electoral system, constitution, and the very notions of democracy in the US, sovereignty of other nations, and cooperation with the rest of the world.
So, if you hate France, just BEND OVER-- so you can get screwed some more by the new pseudo-american fascists.
Germany also opposed bush's war. And in Rome, they had more than a million people demonstrating against it, at one point.
Vive La France!
F*ck DRM.
- Udon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Denmark has already hinted supporting France with a similar legislation.
- Mizark, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Digg where consumer advocacy rules. Unless you are talking about Apple or Nintendo, in that case screw the consumer.
- rm999, on 10/12/2007, -8/+12TechknowPagan
"The rest of the world ignores france, why cant Apple?"
Because Apple likes money, and the french market is probably worth 100s of millions of dollars to them. It would be stupid of them to ignore France. I don't like how France is trying to bully them into changing their business practices, but on the other hand I hate Apple's business practice of keeping all its formats and technology closed. - waxedknight, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Since the iPod is easily the best and most popular portable music player, most people don't have a problem with being locked into Apple's proprietary DRM. But what happens when someone other than Apple comes out with a cheaper, better music player? Almost everyone that has purchased music from the iTunes music store will be forced to continue purchasing iPods. Good for Apple, bad for us and the rest of the portable music player industry.
While eliminating DRM is completely unrealistic (and not what France is suggesting) having a universal, royalty-free DRM is a much better solution. Check out the Open Media Commons and you'll see something like this is on it's way.
http://www.openmediacommons.org/
Thank god we still have countries like France who are willing to stand up for the rights of consumers in this age of digital media. - geekee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5So where's all the protest over the EU sanctions against Microsoft? It's basically the same case.
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