What is Digg?131 Comments
- zweben, on 10/12/2007, -6/+33Indeed. I was worried that this was going to be a over-defensive rant that would end up making the pro-Mac argument look worse (like usual), but he did a good job rationally going over the points without sounding like he was out just to defend Apple.
- phil.busch, on 10/12/2007, -19/+38Thats a great debunking of a debunking.
Digg++; - WinterSolstice, on 10/12/2007, -6/+22Yes.
- dashingyoungman, on 10/12/2007, -8/+21The original story (indexed by Digg) that this guy debunks is here. http://digg.com/apple/The_Mac_ads_are_funny,_but_are_they_true
- jollyllama, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Umm...Yeah, that's one way to look at it. Actually, that's Microsoft's way to look at it. What you're not getting here is that Apple approaches the issue of computing in a more holistic way: it's an entire experience, not just a series of isolated tasks.
- danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13If you havn't used Bluetooth and your Cell phone on a Mac you havn't lived. It is the single greatest feature of OS X. I have set it up on XP on a work machine boy was that a chore that I never want to repeat. Let's thank our friends Broadcom (who purchased WIDCOMM) for making the exact same driver pruposely not work.
- darmokan, on 10/12/2007, -10/+18Very well done on Zero Logik's part. Nothin' like a Mac fanboy who doesn't oversell his love -- the facts speak for themselves.
Now, if only I could find $2800 for a 17" MacBook Pro... - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Advertising has very little relationship to reality. I thought everyone knew that by now.
- gotamd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Correct. There is no way you can install an OEM copy of XP on a Mac unless you don't mind violating MS's EULA. You have to buy a retail copy.
- Tobey, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12Well, you must care just a little bit. I mean, you took the time to come here and write this crappy-ass comment didn't you?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8As expected, this has _yet again_ turned out to be quite the PC vs. Mac masturbation thread. Good job, digg.
- RavenNights, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"In fact if you own Windows (even an OEM copy) and want to run it on your Mac, you can do so at no extra cost."
Don't most EULAs restrict how you can use your OEM Windows XP disk, I'm pretty sure that the disk is bound to the machine it came with by some EULA or another. - mt066, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Ugh I think it's a stupid commercial just like any other stupid commerical. They have 30 seconds to explain to average Joe idiot what's so great about a Mac, theyre not going to go in-depth with benchmarks and security and whatnot.
It's the same as when you see a car commercial with a stuffy looking jerk drive by in the "other" car, and then the laid back dude with 3 hot girls in the back seat rolls up and you know which car is "cooler." Does it stand up to reason? Of course not, but they've only got a limited amount of time to talk to people with a very limited attention span, and thats what theyre doing. - Swift2, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I love the ads, because you get to see a lot of John Hodgeman, one of the funniest guys in the world.
As long as they don't say, "And Macs cure cancer if you use them," the rest is all opinion. The debunking of the debunking is good, the debunking was dopey.
The clearest thing? "All Mac users I know have Xboxes." Well, aside from being irrelevant, it just shows how little the first debunker gets out. - BSpolice, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8So when do we get to see the ads showing the "Mac" burning the "PC" at the stake for being an unbeliever?
- Broncho24, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@dclowd9901
I played a game on my comp once, then I went back to my xbox because it was alot harder without a controller. I don't see the point in gaming on a PC when it is alot cheaper to get a separate console. I mean I'm not trying to say that it shouldn't be done, I just don't see that as a deciding factor. - jiggazah, on 10/12/2007, -13/+18I'm glad that there was a counter argument but honestly, this one was done poorly; he commented on things that were meant to be solely for humor's sake. Perhaps he was trying to be funny back but i didn't get much humor out of it ; I'll conclude that it wasn't trying to be funny at all.
Sure i might just hate Macs (which i don't, i just prefer PCs for Games and building from scrap) but i was really hoping for something that would give more insight into the OS and the hardware of a Mac Vs. PC If a Mac fanatic was to respond. I'm disappointed that this was the pro Mac counter because unless Macs are poor quality for that insane price tag, this counter argument does it no justice in my eyes. - silic0n, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7The article is inaccurate in two places: one, all new macs come with the entire iLife suite, there is no 30-day trial for iWeb, you get it all. He may have confused it with iWork.
Also, the second one is that you can't legally install your OEM copy of Windows on a Boot Camp enabled Mac. According to MS themselves, OEM licenses 'live and die' on the hardware they came on. - Danl, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8does anyone else want to write an article called "The Debunking of the Debunking of the Debunking of the New Mac Ads" now? Or is it just me? Article is ok, the writing is a little more ranty and less informative.
- michaelyurechko, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Who says he's an apple fanboy, he's just trying even the playing field after some windows fanboy attempted to trash macs, and most of the facts mentioned in that article were true, the facts from the windows fanboy however were not all true.
- prodigy311, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Acer is the worst with first boots. I work as a tech at CompUSA and when we do software installs for customers buying a new computer it can take forever. The windows setup takes about five mins to get through because it hangs on naming the computer, even if you skip the step. About acer being the worst, their laptops take about 20 mins to finish installing software on you brand new pc. All in all, it takes about 2hr to get a new PC set up and remove the crap software and AOL, then installing Norton and Spy Sweeper and Office, and maybe longer if we complete all of the latest windows updates.
Now I am a mac user, The first boot process take a few mins, maybe longer if you are trying to take a pic of your self using the built in camera, but than you are ready to go. Sure you may have to update to 10.4.7, and get a few updates for the software on the computer, but at least it is updates to the fun stuff, iLife software. And than you are ready to go. No antivirus and spy software needed. ^^ - danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5You obviously don't know what you are talking about unless you want to post some model numbers... Every single item you mentioned works perfectly fine on a Mac without installing drivers.
- dashingyoungman, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9I didn't get the impression that the people at zerologik were Mac fanatics who were trying to post a pro-Mac article. The title and first paragraph of the article makes it clear that they're out to debunk the first article's absurdly vague and "sometimes" inaccurate points. They're talking about the "ads" and how accurate they are, not the entire debate of Mac vs PC - and frankly, thank god they're not trying to tackle that entire issue.
- pureevilmatt, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8At least we can all agree that the ads are stupid.
- missflibbles, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5The article wasn't "O hey I love my Mac PC sucks omg Steve Jobs!"
This article debunked the original (which had inaccuracies) without being overly nitpicky or snide. It didn't read like something written by a fanboy. It read like something written by a person with some kind of logic processing, which is more than can be said about the first one. I'd say that even if their roles were switched and it were the Mac guy being a douche. - howiloved, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4599 or 1,099 for a laptop is an INSANE price tag? wtf do you live? Africa?
- docillenstein, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5If you believe those ads to be absolute truth I ask you:
How many Miller Lite girls are partying at your place tonight after you bought that case of beer?
It's an ad. We know that there are low blows with the piechart thing. But we weren't getting this defensive the last time Pepsi implied Coke was the beverage of choice for losers. - superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7I think it gives some insight into the OS - the note about drivers often not needing to be added for things you'd have to install something on WIndows for is really true. I don't know how many driver discs for various USB and firewire things I've just tossed in the trash.
I think any otehr aspects you may hev been looking for were not present as there was not anything said about them in the first place to counter.
I do think the followup misunderstood what the original counterpoint was referring to with "costs more", which I took to mean the old saw that macs are more expensive. While some models are a little more I don't think the Macbook (not the Pro) is, especially when you factor how you can easily add a new drive in the thing without opening up the case and thus do not have to pay the maker a premium to add a larger drive for you (an area where Dell and other companies make a lot of money). - spookyttws, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Why is everyone spending so much time and energy on analyzing a commercial campaign that we all know is meant to be entertaining, and innately bias? I mean after all, its meant to sell a product not offer unbiased reviews
- Evilstanley, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6This is all just opinions responding to opinions.
Over an hour to uninstall the out of box software? Hardly. Who honestly restarts every time it tells you to anyway. Just do it all and restart once. If ZeroLogik honestly thinks that non-mac users "are not creative and lack imagination" then they're just being a silly bitch (like Dane Cook). - magicRob, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Even this article has some errors. For example, iWeb isn't a 30day trial. It's part of iLife and "free" with every new Mac... There is a trial for .Mac, but that's 60 days (not that i even bothered).
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I have to dissagree with this guy saying it takes more than 1 hour to remove the crapware that infects a lot of the name brand systems today. I had a laptop from dell and it only took me about 15 minutes to remove all the crapware. We get new dells at work every few months or so and these are usually filled with more crapware than my laptop but I still get it removed in less than half an hour. Now if you count the time it takes to unpack and hook the computer up in that figure then it could take close to an hour, but the guy claims that even a computer savvy person can't do it under an hour and that's just not true. Its rather easy and can be quite quick if you don't reboot between uninstalling each individual piece of crapware.
- Otto, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7For fairness, I'll only respond to his errors of actual fact.
>>>"Buy an external hard drive and plug it in to your PC - watch all the prompts and notices appear."
Response: I have several external hard drives, from several manufacturers. Some are USB, some are firewire. None of them require any extra drivers or install disks to function as disks. You plug them in, a popup says "Hey, i've found new hardware". A second later it says "Hey, it's an external drive made by such and such!". A second later it says "Your hardware is now installed and ready to use". Welcome to the world of Windows XP. Macs are not the only people with built in Mass Storage Device drivers.
>>>"Setup a printer on Windows XP - you get to install new software from HP or Epson."
Generally, with an internet connected computer, it simply download drivers from WindowsUpdate if it needs them. But unless your printer is super-new, XP probably already has them. Really. People who state this sort of thing as if it was a fact are people who have never actually done it.
>>>"Well it's the very breadth of Windows' legacy support that makes it more unstable."
I'm sorry, but this is total nonsense. If you don't have old hardware, you're not running legacy drivers or software.
No, what makes a system unstable is to run unstable software on it. Which is what most people actually do in the Windows world, because they might have some older hardware. On the other hand, Macs are rock solid because every mac user has the exact same applications: The iLife suite. Maybe photoshop. Few others.
Touting Macs as better because they don't support anything more than 5 years old is the same as saying you have to buy a new one every 5 years. Not a good selling point, friend.
Most of the rest of his "debunking" is opinion and/or silliness. I give him that preloaded software sucks, which is why I don't recommend people buy preloaded systems. Oh, and Dell will sell you a system without all the preloaded ***** on it if you ask them to do so. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Go for a MacBook. They're just as fast, unless you need the video card in the Pro for something.
- gotamd, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8I'll debunk the story debunking the debunking of the ads:
"Buy an external hard drive and plug it in to your PC - watch all the prompts and notices appear."
Not true. I have many external drives (and have seen many others) that can just be plugged into an XP box with no drivers or installation prompts at all...they just show up in My Computer.
"out of the box Macs come with a 30-day trial of iWeb for creating web sites and a full running copy of iPhoto and Preview, both of which allow for basic editing, converting and organizing of Photos - Windows has no software nearly as capable out of the box. If he's talking about what's "available" then that's another story. And Windows comes with nothing that creates or manages web sites, unless you count Text Editor."
I don't count a 30-day trial as included software. Many or most of the PC's that people buy come with 30-day trials of MS Office and many also come with lite or trial versions of photo editing software. A base OS X install doesn't include these kinds of trials AFAIK, only when you get the computer from Apple with it pre-loaded. If you're going to compare the two, you have to include the utilities installed by OEMs on Windows machines since that's what he's doing for Macs.
"I don't think the ad says "never" - it insinuates much less often, which you concede."
He didn't debunk anything here in the first place...
"Well it's the very breadth of Windows' legacy support that makes it more unstable. Whine all you want to, but that's one of the key differences between Windows and OS X. OS X supports hardware from maybe 5 years ago and runs like a dream for it. Windows XP is meant to try and support everything everywhere and hence is prone to more crashing. I'm not saying it's wrong for XP to do this, but the bottom line is that it's true. Macs on the whole crash "much less" than Windows XP machines. Give all the reasons you like, still true. Vista may change this, but we're not talking future maybes here.
Sure, IF OS X supported all that old 3rd party hardware it'd probably be as problematic. It doesn't and it isn't. Done."
The debate over stability is full of subjectivity IMO. All of the XP machines I run are stable to the point that I never see them crash. On the flip side, as a PC and Mac technician for my school, I've seen both types of systems crash for various reasons.
"Popping up? Makes it sound like there have been a few viruses running in the wild and infecting people who have OS X doesn't it? Fact is, there isn't a SINGLE WILD virus for Mac OS X. Exploits and vulnerabilities are not viruses. If they were, Windows would have double the number it does. I agree that it's only a matter of time, but don't write ***** that makes people believe they're appearing here and there and more often. They're not."
I agree, though I would add that even an OS X user shouldn't be complacent and dumb about security. I had a friend who created an extra admin account with the username "test" and the password "test" as well. A few weeks later he found that his Powerbook was running an IRC bouncer because a hacker had gained control of his computer using that account.
"Makes it sound like there's some fee for running Windows on a Mac. In fact if you own Windows (even an OEM copy) and want to run it on your Mac, you can do so at no extra cost. And since most people who have Windows, also have a computer to run it on, I'd say that most people could do this for free by using Bootcamp (free) - but if you "must" buy a new license of Windows XP, it's only $99. For a dual-boot system? Big deal. Hell it's the same "extra cost" if you want to dual-boot your PC with Windows 2000 & XP, so don't skew the facts by making it sound like there's some hidden fee."
He wasn't trying to make it sound like there was a "hidden fee". Rather, he was pointing out that Apple won't sell you a copy of XP so you'll have to get it separately from the rest of your computer purchase. The same is not true of Windows PC's.
"Depends on the vendor? Okay, then to clarify, this applies to Dell, Gateway, HP, Sony, Toshiba, Acer, and Lenevo. What's that, about 80% of the market? I guess he means companies such as VooDoo and Falcon Northwest. I don't think a national ad campaign is going to target people who assemble their own machines or buy specialized systems. They're probably going after the average consumer who deals with the big OEMs that I listed above."
Yet it still does depend on the vendor. The guy even cited companies where this isn't a problem in his "debunking". It comes down to choosing your vendor. You can't just discount smaller manufacturers because they aren't popular...especially since Apple itself is a smaller manufacturer when it comes to the personal computer market. - freestyle, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Great article! This one points out almost everything that came to mind as I was reading the first article. Although, this article is written by the Mac favouring author. I prefer to combine both and get an overall picture. Overall, IMO Macs rock.
- someirishguy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Both the debunk and debunking the debunk were amusing, but this one was just to much of a rant, my favorite quote was :
"Then he goes on to make statements as if they're simple facts. "I've seen" is not a fact. That's an experience. Guess what? I haven't seen a cell phone sync via bluetooth with a Windows XP machine with zero additional software installed and almost zero config. "
Way to contradict your self.
Digg for the entertainment value - aliengoods, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I noticed a few errors/oversights. I'll have to write a blog debunking the debunking of the debunking. Which of course will have to be debunked. Probably by a debunker with experience debunking the debunking of a debunked article which was intended as a debunking.
Or maybe, just maybe, I'll say who gives a *****. Use what works best for you. This "I'm better than you" attitude is sad, pathetic, and stinks of elitism on both sides. - Wooism, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3TOUCHE'!!!!!!!!!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Okay. It's like shooting fish in barrel.
"They are actually in the wild. So don't tell me that there are NONE out there in the wild."
Zip. Zero. None. There are a handful of rare trojans and proof-of-concepts, but nothing in the wild. Nothing. But, feel free to make stuff up and ignore the actual comments in your own links.
"Second one is the digital camera about how it just works. On Winodows XP it just works. Simply plug in the usb cable from the camera to the pc and it shows up as a removable drive with a drive letter. Just like the Mac. So that right their is a complete lie."
Oh, really. Try connecting a Canon Digital Rebel to a Windows machine. Or anything that doesn't have WIA drivers. You'll get jack *****. On a Mac? Up pops iPhoto with a beautiful importing, labelling, editing and printing interface. With ANY camera, built-in drivers or not.
"As for the Printer just working. That is if the Mac has a driver. If it doesn't you gotta go download it if the Manufacturer of the printer makes one and install it."
Wrong again. Common Unix Printing System, buddy.
"And this extra cost of running windows, he's right it would cost the same on an intel mac as a pc. But remember the OEM license says you can only operate it on one computer. You can't move it from computer to computer. So once you install it and activate it, then you can only run it on that intel mac. No other PC."
I can't even make sense of this. Are you huffing spray paint cans or something?
"As for windows legacy support and that mac doesn't have legacy support, it means that mac's are mere appliances."
Well, I'll ignore the fact that you honestly have no clue what you're talking about when you say "legacy support" and treat it like a serious point. Hyuck. Macs don't have legacy support? Hmm, last time I checked, it used PCI slots and supported whatever hardware had the appropriate drivers. How exactly is it an appliance again?
"But if you want something more advanced, or want to use another application instead, not allowed. You can't even download the site and move it to another server. You gotta start over."
Uh, yeah you can. It's saved in your iDisk virtual drive. Anyway, .Mac is designed for beginners.
Well, that's that. I honestly hope your 13 or something, where ignorance is a decent excuse. Hopefully, you'll learn to think before you type. Then again, being a loudmouthed, grammatically challenged jackass is par for the course at Digg. So there. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3And only on Digg would you have a bunch of 13 year olds parroting the same old line because they have absolutely nothing interesting or notable to say.
- kolywater, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6i didn't get a pro-mac sentiment from it at all. it was a point by point rebuttal whose sole purpose was to clarify inaccurate arguments put forth by the original article. if the original article purported that windows was better for whatever reason, this rebuttal simply countered that statement not for the sake of promoting macs over windows but to discredit the attack. good read.
- rushfan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Thats an exxaggeration but you do recognize a true issue. People on digg have conflicting views and a-lot of people care more about their viewpoint than the true quality of an article. If an Apple fanboy sees a pro-Apple article, even if its crap, they'll digg it right away. Then a windows fan boy will come along, and bury it and digg some anti-mac article right away. Its not just Windows vs. Mac, it happens with all kinds of issues. Ultimately digg is a good example how voting works - "Who cares how credible the candidate is, I'll just vote by party lines."
- platypibri, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Put simply, Macs arguably have 2 to 5 percent of the computer market. They have far less than 2 to 5 percent of the virus market. I've been led to believe that there are more viruses for the various *nix OSes, which have far less exposure than the Mac. I think in terms of security, I have the right machine.
- Xyleene, on 10/12/2007, -6/+8nitpicking the nitpicking..
There! fixed it - iSEPIC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2hey mt066 - the three hot girls are in the FRONT seat, you know, with the driver - yes, they can fit!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yes, because it makes plenty of sense to build your own laptop. Durr. Did that sound as stupid in your head as it does in mine? Hopefully.
- snuf42, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The point about printers (or cameras) automagically installing is only partially true. If Mac OS X doesn't have a driver for the printer, it won't necessarily work. Yes, it will with most older printers. No it won't for a brand new one. Windows XP is pretty much the same way.
- IronKurton, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"Buy an external hard drive and plug it in to your PC - watch all the prompts and notices appear. Plug it into your Mac - nothing. Just a new drive available. Setup a printer on Windows XP - you get to install new software from HP or Epson. Plug the same printer into a Mac."
Yes, notices appear. There are no prompts. Just "bubble" messages in the tray. Like the parent poster said, this is just plain wrong, and obviously the author of this "debunking" (read: opinion piece by yet another mac vs. pc self-righteous asshat) has never done anything of the sort. I have a Lexar thumb drive (and in fact, have had many different brands of thumb drives), no problem. Canon Powershot? Again, no problem -- I even get a prompt asking me what I want to do with the pictures, if I have that option enabled (i.e. open them with what application, or with explorer to browse) -- this is no different than, according to the author, what the mac does. Maxtor external HD? Again, no problem whatsoever.
I would like to challenge anyone on digg to point me to a USB Mass Storage Device that will not work out of the box on a PC running the most recent version of XP (assuming that the same device works out of the box on a Mac).
I am not bashing Macs, but I simply don't like the all the FUD surrounding the Mac vs. PC battle (no matter which side is spreading it) - and generally, in my posts, I try not to voice my opinions about Macs (something I don't know well) but rather about WinXP (and sometimes Linux) -- something I know relatively well.
Besides, arguing about which is "better" (whatever "better" means) is just plain dumb. - vvargoal, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7Why the hell was this dugg? We get one article that takes an honest look at mac v. windows, and then this flaming apple fanboy comes and "debunks" it. Lets not encourage this junk.
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