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139 Comments
- devindotcom, on 10/12/2007, -12/+46It's trying to sneak up quietly.
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -9/+32How is bringing up sales rank invalid?
I might point out that both Sandisk Sansa and Creative are well ahead of Zune in sales rank, so that means Microsoft's success is capped to somewhere below Creative. So it's a valuable comparative measure to say, where is Microsoft not just in relation to the iPod but the other players in the market segment it needs to win customers from (non-iPod MP3 players). It doesn't mean it's a failure, it just gives you an idea of where the Zune will fit in in terms of marketshare.
It's also a useful indicator to see just how well brown sells in a consumer device, that was an interesting experiment that I didn't think would work out well, but objective numbers are much better to have instead of some people saying it looks ugly and others saying they liked it. Personally I didn't like the look of brown but then I always reserved judgement until I saw it in person... but then the problem you have is a lot of buyers are going to only ever see the online materials, and it seems the pictures there are not appealing enough to get them to buy brown over other colors.
Just because you don't like the results doesn't mean it's not a valuable tool. I'm sure you''d be readily promoting the same data if Zune where in the top ten (as people were at launch). - Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -25/+45I see the 'black' Zune is in 19" place, and the "brown' one is in 58th place. Definitely an iPod killer :P
- g0tmk, on 10/12/2007, -8/+22What do you expect? the iPod dominates the market. duh.
How exactly is this news? - Quix, on 10/12/2007, -7/+21So much for "brown" being the new "white."
"What can brown do for you?" Apparently not much.
Despite flag564's frantic cheerleading and desperate prayers, people just aren't buying these things. There goes your sales commission, flag. - rhesuspieces00, on 10/12/2007, -10/+22the zune is losing (badly) to DISCONTINUED iPods.
- noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -18/+29Ah ha hah ha, flag, you douche, when did Amazon.com become accurate you ask?
Man is there anywhere you won't go to try and diminish how well Apple is doing?
It may be too early to call the Zune a failure but it certainly doesn't have it's sights set on number one. - superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Sales figures from a place that shows you which consumers are buying White or Black Zune's instead of Brown is a useful and objective result.
Ignore the iPod sales figures and simply compare Zune sales against each other to determine the popularly of a given color. Why is that invalid? If the sample rate were low I'd see where you could have quibbles, but being that high in the sales rank of Amazon means the sales figures are probably good enough to derive a comparative result.
And I would argue that Amazon is in fact a large enough retailer to give you a pretty valid sample of how the rest of store sales are going - after all a lot of people are going into stores to try stuff out and then buying at Amazon. Why would someone do that for the iPod but not the Zune? Even if the Zune is not sold for as great of a discount as the iPod it's still generally cheaper to avoid sales tax. - stealthboy, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15Yeah, there's no way that women might want to buy the pink iPod....
- wyrdness, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12The white Toshiba Gigabeat is outselling the white Zune. I'm surprised by how well Sandisk are doing.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Zune is typical of the utter, utter ***** from Microsoft we've all come to know and hate, so what do you expect? They're idiots and crooks, pure and simple.
XBox 360 should be spun off to a separate company, as that and the marketing dept. are the only good things MS have going for them. - jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8actually, i had a 1st gen ipod, and used it on a pc. It wasn't exclusive to mac, just it wasn't 'supported'. :-)
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10The Zune doesn't have any feature that gets better the more people you know have them either... I don't want or need a song I can only listen to thrice. I'd rather just copy the song right off a friends iPod because, you know, I can mount it as external storage and simply copy it off using any number of easily found tools to decypher the song names... Or I can get the name of a band from a friend via email and just check them out that way. I don't need to enable a feature that cuts down my battery life by an hour in the faint hope that someone in the same zipcode owns a Zune...
- stealthboy, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14> "allowing the music companies to dictate the TOU"
Precisely. The focus of the ipod is the user experience. The focus of the Zune seems to be the desires of the music companies. - rhesuspieces00, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11yes, since the market share for the Zune up until a couple weeks ago was 0%, it can't really go down.
- jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12because a majority of digg users wants to bum steve jobs.
- AdrianRice, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12@flag564
"Based on less than a month in the market?"
Based on the highest profile and most expensive pre-launch campaign to date which is unlikely to be surpassed by any other iPod competitor. Are trying to tell me that after that number #17 & #50ish ranked model in the retail market is not an overwhemling disappointing result considering the build-up (astroturfing)? - superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Actually the iPod had really good sales right out of the gate, since it was offering a number of features other players didn't have - the iPod didn't actually take away that much market share from other players like Creative, it simply grew the market outward by offering devices the average person could use.
The Zune started out with a good sales rank at Amazon, but has been trailing off instead of growing - which means worth of mouth is not helping it. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Unlike the console market however, product cycles are much shorter in the digital music player business. They won't have the luxury of a 4 year lapse to introduce the latest and greatest. And you just know Apple isn't resting on their laurels. They're releasing iPods every year and in various forms. Not to mention all the other mp3 player manufacturers out there competing in the same space.
- AdrianRice, on 10/12/2007, -21/+27The real news here is not necessarily the iPod dominance, but the Zune's utterly abysmal failure to sell and where it leaves Microsoft. After screwing it's partners and it's obvious failure to penetrate the vertical model, it's left itself no come back to a key piece of the connected home market; music.
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8The problem Microsoft has is that we have seen a lot of innovation in the market - by Creative and Sandisk, trying hard to keep Apple at bay. So the Zune faces not just iPods but other players in the same market offering most of the same advances - no-one else has wireless, but until Microsoft de-cripples the Zune wireless neither do they really.
Consider the Sandisk Sansa for instance, they have agreements with both RealPlayer and BestBuy to promote the Sansa. That's an uphill battle for Microsof tright there when anyone not looking at iPods is going to see the Sansa promoted at Best Buy over the Zune.
Also the Zune simply needs better marketing, I think a lot of the current sales rank is speaking more to marketing than the features of the player. People need to know it exists to go looking to buy one, and the Zune ads are just too cryptic. - allenb, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8But that comparison is flawed, reighvin.
Every new console generation represents, essentially, a fresh start. Backwards compatibility with old games is important to some (like PlayStation games playing on PS2), but nowhere near as important as compelling new games for the new generation of consoles.
Someone may have bought a PlayStation one generation, followed by an Xbox the next, followed by a Nintendo Wii this - and base all of those decisions on the relative merits of each console, without the burden of backwards compatibility.
Zune needs to be compelling to iPod owners, like the Xbox 360 was compelling to PS2 owners. But that's easier said than done...
Games advance a lot between generations, but digital music won't advance much. The bitrate is likely to improve, but few people beyond audiophiles will notice or care. Therefore, it's harder to give people a compelling reason to switch from one digital music service to another.
Also, a lot of people invest a lot of time in getting their iTunes collections where they want them - and anyone who has bought a large number of songs from the iTunes store won't be keen on changing to a Zune in a hurry, unless they are willing to break the encryption or shell out for new songs with the Zune's DRM.
So it's easier to switch consoles from one manufacturer to the next than it is to switch from one DRM-encumbered digital music player to another.... Microsoft has a much tougher fight on its hands this time. - superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I was just in Botswana two months ago and can verify the desire for Zunes there is rather low. Also Zimbabwe.
- blakyce, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9It is way to early to call the Zune a failure. Personally I hope that it does well and adds some real compettition to the marketplace.
- kimhill, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7jrbrewin said: "...you look like a brainless sheep wearing your easily identifiable white ipod headphones."
Seems to me that people who complain that lots of other people have white earbuds -- and then decide what's good or bad on that basis -- are the "brainless sheep." - noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6" How can you compare iPod and Zune?"
Microsoft dearly hopes you compare the two, that is why they went to such great lengths to emulate it visually, right down to the packaging (if you don't believe me, you've never seen the two). Unfortunately, while that is a good business strategy, it only works when you do it at the right time... not 5-6 years late. Had the Zune came out around the time the iPod craze came out, MS could have beaten it down with pricing and a broader base of support, having the Zune look and feel like the iPod would have helped it. - sunimoto, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10iPod has been available for years and established itself on the market pretty well. There are also a lot of different models to choose from (I don't mean different colors). Zune has came out only couple of weeks ago and has only one model. How can you compare iPod and Zune? #18 is not bad for a new product that everyone seems to hate.
I played with Zune and cannot say it is terrible. It has some nice things, like a much larger screen and radio which some people really missed in iPods.
Having Microsoft compete with Apple in this market is great for consumers. We could finally see some innovative products... - Quix, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13"It may be too early to call the Zune a failure but it certainly doesn't have it's sights set on number one." - noahhoward
Number one? Noah, didn't you get the Zune "fankids" (to use flag564's favorite term) memo? Microsoft DOESN'T CARE about being number one. They don't even care if they sell any Zunes at all! They just want to give the consumers a choice. Microsoft is all about making people happy, you know, not about making money or dominating markets by hook or by crook. Oh, and innovating. They're all about innovating.
So even if (when) the Zune drops to dead last in the DAP market, it's still a smashing success! :| - lunarworks, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11"65. Zune 30 GB Digital Media Player (Brown)
by Zune
..."
I love how Microsoft completely detaches itself from the Zune brand... that shows confidence in both the product AND its own self. - jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9"objective numbers are much better to have instead of some people saying it looks ugly and others saying they liked it"
objective isn't sales figures from one vendor, that just so happens to sell ipods at a really good price. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13After reading the Sun Times piece posted not too long ago, I'm not surprised to hear this. It's clear that Microsoft did not think this out well, by allowing the music companies to dictate the TOU.
- leonbev, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9I'll bet that a lot of kids will end up getting a Zune for Christmas this year when the local brick and mortar stores sell out of iPods. Never underestimate the purchasing power of gullible consumers and effectiveness of greedy commissioned salespeople.
I kinda feel sorry for those kids, but I guess that someone needs to be willing to debug this first generation Microsoft product. - noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9You know flag you can tell a lot about a product by how well it debuts. Like I said before, you won't know 100% if the Zune failed until a few years from now when you get to the point that MS expected to make money off of it but come on man, It's not like people didn't know it was coming. It's not going to suddenly sink in three weeks from now and people won't suddenly go "Oh ***** the Zune is out already, where was I?"
This is showtime for the Zune, MS needed to either come strong or not bother. If you aren't doing well during Christmas and your competition is surpassing itself daily you aren't going to do well any time soon. That's economics 102 for you. - superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Actually Sandisk has some pretty nice designers it seems - they also make a really nice CF card that is pretty cheap (if you trust microdrives!). The Sansa has had some good reviews.
The weird thing about Microsoft's entry is that the Sansa and the like are in the sweet spot of the MP3 player market, where most of the sales go - Microsoft entered at a rougher portion of the curve. - superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4That is true that it's better to look at HD players specifically to see better where the Zune falls...
What that says right now is that all the current iPod HD units are outselling the Zune except for the white 80 GB iPod (black is more popular there it would seem). Also in that list the black Zune is ahead of the Creative Zen Vision.
Still, I'm not sure it's fair to ignore the smaller flash segment as that's where the bulk of sales are, and most figures reported in the news will be MP3 players, not as specific to just HD based players. - noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Flag how is it in that little world of yours? It's cold here in real-land, hopefully you're at least getting good weather.
Maybe some of you haven't realised but there haven't been many positive reviews of the Zune from the major tech groups yet. All of us 'fearful Apple fanboys' would have a hard time swaying the minds of some of the leading tech editors.
And, adragons, while 'FUD-boy Flag' is right on the points you listed, he is still only half right.
1.) Amazon does not count for all sales.
Of course not, that would be silly. When you do a survey though, you don't ask every single person on earth what they look at. You look at a large portion of your valid audience. Amazon represents a large portion of tech-aware shoppers.
2.) The Zune is new.
Yeah... and it is doing horribly. For many of the valid points brought up before, a bad launch is not a good sign.
- turbodigg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Dude, even the creative zen m is above the zune, and I never see anyone with those!
- scottmoss, on 10/12/2007, -10/+13Zunes market share is not shrinking it is definitely growing.... Iriver, Creative, etc. are shrinking fast. The Zune is just not taking market share from Ipod....
- j_bellone, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5My brother picked a Zune up a week or so ago and has loved it since. I've messed around with it and honestly don't see any reason to go out and buy one since I have a 4G iPod (I also don't see a reason to go out and buy a new iPod for that very same reason). When my iPod dies though, which it will, because its been in the shop three times already I am going to be looking very hard at the Zune. The video is more crisp than the iPod, the controls are good, and the GUI is in my personal opinion cleaner and sleeker. The fact that it comes with an FM tuner (and not charging MORE for it) is a cherry on the cupcake for me.
The only gripe is that it does not use Windows Media Player but instead uses a hacked up version of it. I'm no fan of iTunes (by far - I *hate* iTunes) but I'd rather not get sucked into another piece of ***** media software just because the company decided to tie in their player with it. All of my music is ripped from purchased CDs so hopefully someone will code up decent substitute. Besides that I have not found any faults with the Zune.
If anything its going to make Apple work a little harder on their newest players instead of releasing a brighter screen and a ***** search feature that could have been pushed out across the whole line. The sharing feature is interesting and we have not been able to utilize it yet because nobody has a Zune. Everyone we've shown the unit to (instead of just talking about it) is saying that they want to go buy one. So that says something. - noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6The 'iPod killer' Zune hasn't been out for over a year so, news? Yes, very much so.
- theda3g0, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4In reference to the Zune comment, it's an unfair comparison. (not that I'm supporting the Zune... I have no intention of ever buying one.) Apple has many more versions of not only their flash based players, but also their hard-drive based players.
Click on the "Hard Drive-Based" link in the menu on the left and you get a better idea of where the Zune really sits in comparison to other like models.
Comparing flash based players and hard-drive based players is apples and oranges. - lokiworks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Arguing about which device is leading the charts? Times have changed. In my day we used to argue about music. :)
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4@scottmoss:
If Creative's market share is shrinking, should Microsoft then be worried that the iRiver is well ahead of any Zune in the sales charts? The same goes for the Sandisk Sansa... - ZekeSulastin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Because Creative players generally have a good deal more features in terms of addons and codecs than the iPod does, the particular one you're looking at (likely the Vision:M) consistently had great reviews, and it costs less than the equivalent iPod?
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Actually yes, a high percentage of market share (or at least continued presence in the top ten) would be expected after such an expensive marketing push.
- rickcarson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@j_bellone:
"so hopefully someone will code up decent substitute"
So basically what you are saying is that you'd buy Microsoft's hardware... so long as someone else wrote the software... hmm... - ArnoldTPants, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Wow, the fanboys are really afraid that the Zune will do well and are going all out to convice everyone it sucks. What pathetic, desperate fanboys. Why do you care if someone else buys a Zune?
- eventualbuddha, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Apple has 15 of the top 25 players.
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -6/+8"I hate apple like most people with common sense do"
Ok then...
The iPod has actually rather a lot more features than most players - at least useful ones. Not that many people want or need FM tuners for example, and those that ignore the large stock of great music they have on the player and want to listen to the same four songs on FM can always buy a FM remote/tuner for the iPod. You see, with the iPod you have the choice of never listening to radio again if you like instead of always carrying one with you. - halleyscomet, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7@flag564
So, flag564, how's that Zune review of yours coming along?
You've already put enough time and effort into your Digg comments to have written an extensive and well researched review. Why don't you stop pissing and moaning about the reviews that are out there now and write one of your own.
Show us all how it's done flag564. Write a Zune review that you consider to be honest and objective, including all of the Zune's good and bad points. -
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