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- AFelsinger, on 12/02/2008, -1/+35sorry about the thumbnail
- BossKey, on 12/03/2008, -4/+37Oh jesus. Here's the thing. Apple's trapped by you, the user.
Every time Apple continues doing what it and Microsoft have done, which is pile on the glitz and the bells and whistles, power users post "You clueless corporations, stop making me pay for glitz and bells and whistles. Give me an OS that is faster, smaller, and more efficient, with better support for all my RAM and cores and 64-bit data paths. Ah, but who are we kidding, you corporations will never do that, you'll just keep pumping out the feature bloat and charge hundreds for it."
So now Apple announces Snow Leopard, an upgrade that is supposed to be about speed, efficiency, stability, with proper optimizations for all your RAM and cores and 64-bit data paths. Everything the advanced users ask for, to the point where Apple actually says it isn't going to be that big on the visible features.
And what kind of response do they get from a Digger?
"It just seems like it's not going to be all that much different than the other kitty-cats."
Well of course it won't, as stated, most of the changes will be under the surface! If enough users say "I don't see a difference," Apple and Microsoft will conclude that users really don't upgrade unless there is enough Shiny(TM) after all, the new direction of Snow Leopard is a waste of time, and they should just go back to the feature bloat and eye candy that always worked before. - cheapotheclown, on 12/03/2008, -1/+24The prospect of finally using all 8 cores in my mac pro to their fullest is enough for me.
- inactive, on 12/03/2008, -1/+22I actually think it's awesome that Apple is taking a breather from UI feature development to address the underlying architecture. This will help ensure that OS X remains competitive and stable in the future.
- SpeedSteamBoat, on 12/03/2008, -0/+14BREAKING: Apple Still In Business! - "After several months of business as usual, it appears nothing has changed at the Steve Jobs led technology outfit. An inside source reports the company is still working on products. Essentially everyone suspected Apple was fine, having no reason to believe otherwise, and now those..."
- MrDoug, on 12/03/2008, -3/+16Ok, so am I the only person that isn't all that excited for Snow Leopard?
It just seems like it's not going to be all that much different than the other kitty-cats. - Stevo23, on 12/03/2008, -0/+10...as opposed to the real snow leopard, which is rapidly going extinct.
- unmarked, on 12/03/2008, -0/+9Perhaps you have an incredibly liberal definition of "glorified patch". Theoretically, every major OS released by MS, Apple, or Linux is just one gigantic binary patch away from the last.
Putting in a 64-bit kernel, OpenCL, Grand Central means that the entire core libraries have been completely redone. If those tools mean that my multi-core Macs can be better utilized not just by Apple, but by all developers, then it extends the life of my Intel Mac significantly and would make it well worth the cost of $129. - Spuy767, on 12/03/2008, -1/+8What's under the hood of Snow Leopard, which I've been using a DP for a while now, is WAY more than an intel optimization. So if your joking, it isn't funny. If you're serious, then you need to read a book or two on computers.
- dizzy113, on 12/02/2008, -0/+7Happens all the time, especially when you type in the wrong captcha text the first time
- hendricusrobijn, on 12/02/2008, -1/+8I was hoping to see it on my Mac in February. But I guess we have to wait a few more months instead. I think Q2 of 2009 would be more likely, unless Apple speed things up. Well I rather have a stable OS with some minor bugs than an in stable OS with lots of bugs.
Anyone know if there are any new features? Or will the big changes be under the hood of OSX, like previously state by Apple? - PercyKittenz, on 12/03/2008, -2/+8Apple really should make Snow Leopard a free (or very cheap) upgrade to customers who already have Leopard. It seems like Snow Leopard is going to be essentially a service pack for Leopard with some big under-the-hood changes, and it's going to be hard to sell that to consumers. Telling them that it'll allow people to write better software for their multi-core CPU isn't as exciting as Spaces or Time Machine, and it doesn't make a very good video for Apple's product site. Giving away Snow Leopard will actually be more beneficial to Apple for three reasons:
First, the performance and stability improvements to Leopard are sorely needed by everyone, and it doesn't help Apple's image any to have a brand new computer running Leopard that is buggy and underperforms because non-critical patches aren't going out to Leopard users. It isn't hard to figure out that a speedy and stable OS on every Apple computer is going to convince more people to adopt OSX over Vista right now.
Second, many of the gains that Snow Leopard will have won't be realized until people start using it. Grand Central and the new architecture for applications to utilize it will require people to be writing software for it, so the faster you get programmers on the new technology, the sooner everyone gets to see those improvements. It's no good for me to upgrade to 10.6 if the developer of my favorite app is still stuck with 10.5 until he can afford to drop $129 on another OS update.
Lastly, bundling the 10.6 upgrade into the price for 10.5 will make it a lot easier for Apple to market this. As I started out by saying, it's going to be really hard to convince people to upgrade their OS for abstract technology reasons that they don't understand, so why try to? Instead, you can try to reach those people who are still sitting on the fence about Leopard and using 10.4 and get them to pony up the cash for two upgrades in one. That way, you can tell them that for their $129, not only do they get the performance improvements of Snow Leopard, but they get all those fancy features of Leopard that are much easier to show off. And the people who already paid the $129 get grandfathered in. Plus, how much is it going to suck to be one of the people who bought or received a brand new Mac for Christmas, then finds out that you'll be out of date within three months unless you pay more? Getting as many people under the roof of 10.6 as possible is going to lead to a lot more satisfied customers all around. - avatarpalin, on 12/03/2008, -0/+6Apple? Oh pretty damn shiny I think..
- Kelmon, on 12/03/2008, -0/+6I don't think that has been officially confirmed by Apple yet but the current betas are Intel-only so it does not look likely. My wife's old PowerBook is in the same boat.
- BossKey, on 12/03/2008, -2/+8Lolcat
- Radan, on 12/03/2008, -0/+5Even if it would run on the old PowerPC based computers, I doubt you would benefit from it as much. The main thing about the Snow Leopard update is that they are greatly optimising the OS on Intel based Macs, throwing out as much of the PowerPC architecture as possible.
- commenter01, on 12/03/2008, -0/+5spelled lynx.
- osiris24x, on 12/03/2008, -1/+6While I agree about the lack of excitement, I'll reserve judgment until Macworld. :)
- unmarked, on 12/03/2008, -1/+6There is this weird "service pack" mentality created by Microsoft that everything that doesn't have a clicky-thing is just a "service pack".
If they are adding features, they will likely charge something for it for accounting purposes. It is a pain in the ass for Apple to account for new features added to existing products if they put the full price on their books already. See Airport Extreme, iPhone, iPod touch stories for examples of this stuff.
There is only one example: 10.0 -> 10.1, where Apple did not charge for the upgrade. This was before the SOX compliance rules existed and the upgrade was not about features, but just getting reasonable performance (10.0 was slow as molasses) from existing features. - unmarked, on 12/03/2008, -1/+6They are adding significant new features, they are just mostly under the hood features rather than new click-this features. Software that simplifies the task of taking advantage of multi-core CPUs and GPUs means developers can spend less time on those tasks and more time on features you want.
These type of enabling technologies are especially crucial for small developers, which are often more innovative and cutting edge than the behemoths like MS and Adobe. - avatarpalin, on 12/03/2008, -0/+4Finder written in Cocoa, a new file system, Open CL (using the GPU for general processing) I'm pretty keen to get it..
but I'm a fanboy.. I've come out of the Apple store - R1100S, on 12/03/2008, -0/+4That's cool. This machine came with OSX. I skipped Tiger, but upgraded to Leopard when OSX stopped being supported.
If I can get another couple of years of support out of Leopard, I'd be happy.
Seriously...the fact of the matter is....I'm typing on a 5yr old computer. No computer of mine has EVER lasted 5 years before being annoyingly obsolete.
I'm giving my wife a new MacBook for Christmas (our 1st son was born 3 weeks ago...time to edit HD video!), but my 12" Powerbook G4 would make a nice gift to my parents. The longer this machine doesn't have issues, the more likely my parents are to enjoy it and not be frustrated. - digitalpencil, on 12/03/2008, -0/+4^ i don't know.. i'm convinced that it is going to cost the same as every other upgrade however the under-the-hood changes are significant enough to warrant the expenditure imo.. OpenCL, Grand Central and reduced form factor are things i would invest money into. but to each their own..
i will wait until i start to see some preliminary reviews and decide whether the speed increase warrants the cost of the upgrade for me personally. - mrBitch, on 12/03/2008, -0/+4@Radan RE: " Even if it would run on the old PowerPC based computers, I doubt you would benefit from it as much.
The main thing about the Snow Leopard update is that they are greatly optimising the OS on Intel based Macs, throwing out as much of the PowerPC architecture as possible. "
Correct, if you're running on PowerPC there is NO advantage to running Snow Leopard (and, in any case... you may find Apple will not give you the option). - Kelmon, on 12/03/2008, -0/+3"a new file system"
Don't count on that one - I seem to recall that ZFS has only been announced as a feature of the OS X Server edition, unless someone knows differently. - dagamer34, on 12/03/2008, -0/+3Yep, the only real problem will be printer drivers, which Apple is probably making sure that printer manufacturers have ready before Snow Leopard ships. Printer drivers are the main reason most people complain about 64-bit OSs besides hardware support.
- chewy5000, on 12/03/2008, -2/+5"essentially a service pack for Leopard with some big under-the-hood changes"
You see, that's where it stops being a service pack. Sure lots of users won't buy it because of 'no pretty interface changes' but it is as much a new version as it would be if it had a different looking dock etc. - Altotus, on 12/03/2008, -0/+3That's just it, though. Snow Leopard's changes are very big and very fundamental. It's no less an upgrade than Tiger -> Leopard, and arguably much more so.
Also, FWIW, Leopard is a "64-bit" OS. Snow Leopard moves all of the legacy 32-bit parts to 64-bit. Also, the description of it introducing support for multi-core systems is a little misleading since that's been there all along. Snow Leopard introduces to the mix libraries rebuilt using OpenMP and some new thread management stuff, and a new scheduler for kernel (I've seen it reported that they are moving from the basic Mach scheduler to the astonishingly good ULE scheduler), and then the addition of OpenCL to provide the option to use the GPU as a transputer.
I'm not party to the actual developer's releases, but as I understand it, the performance improvements are startling. - MacParrot, on 12/02/2008, -0/+3Not sure really. If it's optimized for the Intel Macs and gets rid of some of the old PPC and whatever code was required to make it Universal then it will still be worth it as long as they don't charge the same price as other OS upgrades.
Of course we're talking about Apple so no promises there. If they charge $129 same as before without any significantly new features then I'll be holding back. - unmarked, on 12/03/2008, -2/+5I hope that Apple uses Snow Leopard as a way to move to Intel-only. Leopard is a great OS and certainly extends the life of PPC-based Macs, but Apple needs to cut the chord beyond that.
This is all about resources. If you're supporting 4+ year-old hardware, that takes time and energy from your developers that could be working on some great new, whiz-bang feature. - jeffkee, on 12/03/2008, -0/+3The most fierce predator known to North Americans...
- dogparade, on 12/03/2008, -1/+4HOLY ***** *****
- inactive, on 12/03/2008, -0/+2How shiny could they possibly make it?
- clockdist, on 12/03/2008, -0/+2"...outside developers remain tasked with testing Microsoft Exchange support, a technology Apple said would find its way into Snow Leopard's versions of Mail, iCal and Address Book."
Finally! I can stop using Entourage for my work email! - mrBitch, on 12/04/2008, -0/+2@ R1100S RE: " That's cool. This machine came with OSX. I skipped Tiger, but upgraded to Leopard when OSX stopped being supported.
If I can get another couple of years of support out of Leopard, I'd be happy.
Seriously...the fact of the matter is....I'm typing on a 5yr old computer. No computer of mine has EVER lasted 5 years before being annoyingly obsolete. "
Wow, maybe I should reconsider selling my (nearly) 2 year old MacBook Pro...
I guess I still haven't adjusted my thought processes to the fact that Macs have a much longer USEFUL life span than my old PCs & Windows laptops ever did... - techdever, on 12/03/2008, -2/+4i don't understand why it took apple so much time to make a proper 64bit kernel. It's a shame you can't use all the power of an 8core mac pro that's been on the market for quite a while now.
- jeffkee, on 12/03/2008, -2/+4I guess their running out of names of cool predators.
I wonder if Apple will ever start naming them after water predators... "OSX 11 - Great White" or something like that. - imakecomments, on 12/03/2008, -0/+2http://www.notjustatheory.com/
;) - redwallhp, on 12/03/2008, -0/+2Cocoa Finder FTW!
- TheNik, on 12/03/2008, -0/+2There really isn't too much of a use for Blu-Ray on any computer right now, in my opinion. High definition video is nice and all, but doesn't make since on computers right now. You could use it for data, but that's unnecessary - what program uses that much space on optical disks?
- unmarked, on 12/03/2008, -3/+5Here's why: because they were busy seamlessly CHANGING CPUs. Remember, Apple hasn't be on Intel all that long. Customers don't think about it because Apple spent many long man-hours hiding all that from the user experience. So 64-bit capable processors were a pretty small niche before Intel (where most machines in the last couple years are all 64-bit capable).
Now, Apple might have done something like make a 64-bit version of their OS and a 32-bit version, but that would just be stupid and confusing. - mrBitch, on 12/03/2008, -1/+3@computershack RE: " Heh-heh, dugg down to hell...guess the truth hurts, eh fanbois? "
No, you're being dug down because you're understanding of "building out" is incorrect.
There is no release stating that Apple is going to pull a "Vista".
In fact, if you remember... instead of cutting features from Leopard, Apple DELAYED OSX Leopard in order to be able to add in the promised features.
Although ZFS will initially be available only on the OSX Server editions... ZFS will make it down to the OSX Desktop, just as Apple did when HFS+ was originally released on the Server first. - elendryst, on 12/03/2008, -0/+2I think he's referring to blu-ray support in the actual application, not for blu-ray drives.
- pnunn, on 12/03/2008, -0/+1Wildcat, Bobcat, Mountain Lion...
And I wonder if Lynx isn't a cursed name after the failed Atari hand held? - newbill123, on 12/03/2008, -1/+2I'd like a (non-optimized) PowerPC version to be released to save the compatibility headaches for developers and support techs.
Apple is going to update underlying many Leopard core libraries, codecs, file formats, and other resources developers depend on for their software to work. Apple will be referring to this release with a name sounding very similar to its prior release (Leopard vs. Snow Leopard).
It would be great if every supported Leopard machine could install Snow Leopard even if certain new features and optimizations were not supported (just don't crash). There will be Intel machines incapable of using new 10.6 features like 64-bit processing, Core Central, or OpenCL because they don't have the architecture to support it (the first release of the Intel Mac Mini for example). PowerPC compatibility would also be helpful to developers.
If my Leopard compatible product was developed using a system provided library (like APR), Apple will probably update it for the Snow Leopard release (at least I hope so). If all of my users (including those on PowerPC) could be told to upgrade to Snow Leopard, I'd save my hassle from having to write in special cases for different versions of that library. Instead, I'd be passing on a request for users to spend money on Apple's upgrade and save my development time for building in support for Snow Leopard's new features instead of backwards compatibility.
I wouldn't expect a PowerPC Snow Leopard release to show any increase in speed like the Intel version will. And I'd expect it to be the end of the line for PowerPC on OS X. But I'd just like to be able to spend less time talking about the differences between Leopard and Snow Leopard to my customers and more time actually using developing with Snow Leopard features. - newbill123, on 12/03/2008, -0/+1On Nov 19, 2008, the Khronos group turned over the final OpenCL spec to the lawyers for a 30 day review. That means, assuming there are no legal hurdles found, that the spec and sample code will not be publishable until Dec 19, 2008. No spec-conforming OpenCL betas will appear in Snow Leopard before then (and probably not for a month or so with the typical end of year vacations and tumult).
When Jordan Hubbard (Director of Engineering of Unix Tech at Apple) gave his speech and referred to a Quarter 1, 2009 release of Snow Leopard, it seems much more likely he's speaking of an internal deadline (release to quality assurance?) or talking about a very fast paced schedule to get a release candidate delivered to paid Apple developers by that time.
3 months is a very tight timeframe to implement, debug, and seed a major tech like OpenCL. Snow Leopard appears to be very rapidly evolving, but I don't see a rationale for putting it on retail shelves before Apple's Worldwide Developer Conference in 2009. For a "developer focused" release like Snow Leopard, the next step will be to get developers to adopt (or at least get familiar with) the tech that's introduced.
My expectation is for a post WWDC 2009 retail release at a price point similar to 10.1 Puma (cost of media) or 10.2 Jaguar ($79). - Enlightenment, on 12/07/2008, -0/+1Introducing the NEW Apple Product...now with MORE SMUG!!!!
Funny Apple Spoof on Simpsons...this is great!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZGIn9bpALo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZGIn9bpALo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZGIn9bpALo - mrBitch, on 12/04/2008, -1/+2@ techdever RE: " Vista 64 runs GREAT on a mac pro... can you guess why? "
Yes, I can guess why... it's EXACTLY the same reason why there isn't going to be a problem with OSX requiring all 64 bit drivers.
The reason is simple. Since Apple controls the specific mix of hardware within it's Mac range, it's not going to be a problem AT ALL to make sure that there WILL be 100 % availability of 64 bit drivers for that set of hardware.
And that's ALSO EXACTLY the reason that Vista 64 runs GREAT on a Mac, since the Mac hardware mix is VERY SPECIFIC it was NO PROBLEM for manufacturers to provide 64 bit Vista drivers for that hardware configuration. - mrBitch, on 12/04/2008, -0/+1RE: " I wouldn't expect a PowerPC Snow Leopard release to show any increase in speed like the Intel version will. And I'd expect it to be the end of the line for PowerPC on OS X. But I'd just like to be able to spend less time talking about the differences between Leopard and Snow Leopard to my customers and more time actually using developing with Snow Leopard features. "
Damn, they're ALL good points I hadn't considered... - mrBitch, on 12/03/2008, -1/+2@unmarked, correct.
@techdever RE: " i don't understand why it took apple so much time to make a proper 64bit kernel. "
You're confused. OSX is a 64 bit OS, but it has a 32 bit kernel which allows switching and scheduling and MIXING of 32 bit apps and 64 bit apps.
Even better still, unlike Vista 64, the OSX 32 bit kernel allows OSX to MIX 32 bit and 64 bit drivers.
When OSX goes to a 64 bit kernel, it will have to have ALL 64 bit drivers, and will no longer be able to mix 32 bit and 64 bit drivers (although it will still be able to mix 32 bit and 64 bit apps).
Unlike Microsoft, Apple won't really have much of a problem with providing OSX with ALL 64 bit drivers...
...can you guess why ? -
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