What is Digg?40 Comments
- diggfinity, on 10/12/2007, -5/+32We're gonna need lube for an Apple probe. :/
- kronix2, on 10/12/2007, -8/+35Ok, I can see some people are talking about the evil EU and innocent Apple, so I'll spell it out in simple terms:
APPLE VIOLATED EU LAW
Apple is preventing the free movement of goods between EU member states, as is stipulated by EU law. They do this by locking you in to the iTunes store of the country your credit card is registered in. This means a British consumer is unable to buy tracks from the Germans iTunes store. This is in clear violation of EU law, and it's why the European Commission launched a probe.
APPLE CAN CHARGE HOWEVER MUCH IT WANTS IN ANY COUNTRY
Apple is free to charge different prices in different EU member states. What they're not permitted to do is preventing EU consumers from purchasing tracks from the iTunes stores of other EU member states. Under EU law, EU consumers MUST be able to shop in foreign stores and buy goods at the foreign prices.
THE EU IS NOT PICKING ON APPLE
THe European Commission has levied colossal fines on Microsoft, Siemens and other companies. Apple is just the latest company which is suspected of breaking EU law and mistreating customers.
APPLE AREN'T A BUNCH OF ANGELS
Apple obviously knew about the EU's freedom of movement laws. They chose to knowingly violate them when they signed deals with record labels which prevented consumers in one EU state from purchasing tracks from the iTunes store of other EU member states.
"APPLE SHUD LEAV TEH EU!!!!! LOL EUROP SUX BALZ"
Let's overlook the fact that withdrawing from a market of 500 million people would be incredibly stupid and assume that Apple does indeed cease trading in the EU. The record labels will simply sell their European music licenses to other music stores, and business will continue as usual. If Apple wants to trade in the EU, they have to follow our laws. They haven't, and in all probability they'll be hit with colossal fines. It's as simple as that. Believe it or not, preventing corporations from abusing consumers is part of the European Commission's job. - otomo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18That is the ONE feature I want on iTunes Music Store.
Let me buy music from France, Germany, GB, etc... I will pay the current exchange rate for the currency used. I don't care, just let me buy music from other countries dammit!
The music "industry" needs to learn country barriers are becoming nonexistent. If they continue to put up artificial walls then piracy will get worse. - nogami, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13I've always been puzzled by music labels who refuse to sell outside of certain geographic areas (at any price). I also would like to buy songs from ITMS Japan, but I'm not going to go to all the hassle of buying pre-paid cards and setting up more accounts. Plan B is just to "find it elsewhere".
I'm not quite sure how not allowing people to purchase music they want legally is a sound business decision...
Oh well, their choice if they don't want my money. - Murdats, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16god ***** damit, there have been 100 of these stories latley and people still cant learn why apple are in trouble
the EU isnt getting up apple for charging what they want
the problem is APPLE IS PREVENTING PEOPLE WITHIN THE EU TO PURCHASE FROM OTHER LOCATIONS IN THE EU!!!!!!
this, in the EU is illegal, if apple doesnt like it, pull out of the whole eu market, otherwise play by their rules
if im in france and pay $2 for a song, then by the EU regulations i should be able to buy the same song in germany for $1 and noone is allowed to stop me, apple however is
the article is saying its damn expensive to buy songs from itunes in denmark. and people in denmark cannot pay the cheaper price that other EU countries pay, they must buy from the denmark store. once again, that is illegal in the EU - Shivalyn, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Sigh...I read it too fast and read "Anal probe will shake up whole music industry" and thought the RIAA was starting to get really serious.
- coolspray, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10"So, because some people decided that selling at different prices in different places is wrong, it is? What gives them the right to aggress against those who engage in voluntary interactions that they don't like?"
That's not the point. They can charge what they want where they want, but in the EU, they can't prevent other people from taking advantage of the price differences by not allowing people to purchase from other locations within the EU.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6522429.stm - retawd, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13At least it's not a PINEAPPLE probe..! ;P
- morriscat, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13iProbe, 10,000 songs up your...
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@Nasikabatrachus
The EU does not own the European countries, it is an agreement between them. - lysdexia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7One day all these bawbag companies will grasp the nettle and go with an allofMP3 type model for music sales. The prices are fair and I'd love to see sales figures for that company.
If they price digital audio well, there would be no piracy and every interested party could enjoy many slices of the most lucrative pie that is music sales. Until then - even if they kill allofMP3 - there will always be a way found to access music in the digital domain that doesn't firstly rip-off the consumer. - pauleric, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@kronix2, while I mostly agree with you, Apple is in a difficult situation. You say it would be incredibly stupid for Apple to not trade in the EU. I agree. The problem is, in making those deals with the record companies, that fact gives the record companies all the power. So, Apple has the unenviable choice of not trading in the EU, or breaking the law. And for big companies "breaking" is easily rationalized as going up the edge and just a little bit over to see what you can get away with.
Would you prefer MS take over the online music business? You like PlaysForSure? Oh wait, that's already obsolete. You know the way MS operates: they just thumb their nose at the law, dragging it out for years in litigation and negotiation, until the current technology becomes irrelevant or their competitors go bankrupt.
At least Jobs is pushing for DRM-free music. As self-serving as his maneuvering may be, it's much better than the alternative. - Izacus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4For all you US people that don't seem to understand. Consider if Apple would only allow you to buy their music in only about 10 US states and each state would only be able to buy songs by their own prices, while all other wouldn't be able to buy music at all. That's how it is in EU currently.
- Loonacy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"Apple is doing nothing more. You're in France? You get French prices. You're in Germany, you get Germany pricing."
That's not at all how it works.
"iTunes checks credit card details before accepting payment. For instance, only people with a credit card issued by a bank with an address in Germany can buy from the German site."
You're in France? You get German prices, because your bank is a German bank. You're in Germany? You get UK prices, because your bank is a UK bank. - betona, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Indeed. When CDs first came out, the manufacturing cost was way up there -- as in 8 or 9 bucks per disc if memory serves me. Now the cost is in the pennies, with the record companies raking it in on a per-unit basis.
My beef has always been with the single price model. The absolute latest, hottest release has the exact same price as a 50-year-old b-side single and that's just wrong. There's no way a Sam Cooke song from 1960 should cost the exact same as whatever, say, Fergie just released last week. And yet, it does in the digital music world. - radio1mike, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Lysdexia has it right.
I have always thought that this digital music pricing was wrong. It should be based on data and data quality (like allofmp3.com). After all, is that not why we are getting bounced out of 'fair use'? Because we can produce data exactly, even if we do 'own' it? Silly silly silly.
I would be inclined to buy all my music online if they were pricing like allofmp3.com does. But they don't. And $1.00 per track is too much money for a stream of zeroes and ones. The GD media I am downloading it too is mine. I don't own those bits on my own hard drive???
The music companies devalued their own products by:
1) Not dropping CD prices to way below the $10.00 price mark for a major acts. Remember those evening news reports in the late '80, when the record labels and the RIAA said, 'CD prices will drop to the $6-$7 when everybody adopts the standard.' crap.
2) Overvalue = Devalue. Digital technology without the freedom of how, when and where to use it has devalued the record companies products. 45s when I was a teen used to be $1.50 a pop. I did not mind paying that, still would not-- because it something tangible. Strings of data really aren't.... - Kingster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@Loonacy: I thought it was based on your billing address, not your bank address.
- Loonacy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@kingster
Perhaps, I'm not sure. My quote about banks was from the BBC article that coolspray linked. Either way, if I lived in Germany and traveled to France, my bank address and billing address would both be Germany, so I would get German prices despite being in France at the time of the purchase. - lysdexia, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4No it's not a lie - let alone flat out as you so poncily put it.
There is no compulsion on Apple (other than profit motive) to agree to any deal with record companies after all - they have a right to say: "No - that's a rip-off."
Apple did not do that - they wanted the dollars more than any concern for fair pricing for its customers and so it's fair to lump them right in with all the other greedy corporate ***** who overcharge for music. - meatmcguffin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2That doesn't explain the countless times the music industry has pressured Jobs to increase prices and he flat out refused.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I can't stand another "probe" the month.
The IRS just "rected" me. - Spuy767, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Apple does what the Nazi's of the RIAA force them to do do compete in the industry. Give apple free reign over what they sell and at what price, and I guarantee you that the consumer is in a better position. You see, Appl has adapted its business model to compete in the 21st century, the music industry is operating on the same business model as when LP's were all the rage. Times have changed, and some industried refuse to adapt, choosing instead to wither away an a protracted death taking down as much with them as possible out of sheer spite.
- MacParrot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1What would make Apple more money? Having one music store where you buy any song that you want in the currency of the region you live or the credit card you own? Or what they currently are forced to do by the content copyright holders by having multiple stores and maintaining different lists and databases? Having to maintain all these stores is costing Apple money. Does any other LEGAL music store do anything different?
I don't kid myself into thinking that Apple is some magical company that is concerned about me. They're just another corporation that wants me to spend my money and help them make profits. But at the same time I don't blame them for things that are not in their control. If the EU wants to make changes, go after the people that force Apple and MS and every other legal store to do this; the music copyright holders that are mostly owned by european based companies. - InfidelAl, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2thehuntedpossum
"well, you aren't always able to do that. for instance there is a ton of great rock music that is being made in japan, that we really don't hear about. it's only sold on the japanese iTunes, and it can't be bought by Americans. you need japanese currency (i.e. a japanese iTunes gift card) and even a japanese address to purchase the music (a lot harder to come by)."
I'd agree that everyone should be able to purchase them. But how is not being able to buy some Japanese rock music from iTunes illegal? It might be a poor business decision, but illegal? Besides, who forced the bands to sell their songs only through iTunes?
And then...
"there could also be an argument against restricting apple's ability to set prices for its products, where ever the location."
Huh? Why? Apple should be able to charge $99 per song if they chose to. Though it would be an incredibly dumb thing for them to do, there's no compulsion for anyone to buy from iTunes, or for someone to sell through the company for that matter. - LatvianHedgehog, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2That's iLube.
- thehuntedpossum, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2well, you aren't always able to do that. for instance there is a ton of great rock music that is being made in japan, that we really don't hear about. it's only sold on the japanese iTunes, and it can't be bought by Americans. you need japanese currency (i.e. a japanese iTunes gift card) and even a japanese address to purchase the music (a lot harder to come by).
there could also be an argument against restricting apple's ability to set prices for its products, where ever the location. - Nasikabatrachus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2What argument is that, hunted possum?
It doesn't even sell essential services such as food or water, and buying an apple product isn't exactly involuntary.
If they don't want to sell something to you based on the currency you use, or for any other reason quite frankly, they don't have to, and they certainly don't have to sell at the price you want (read: the price deemed best by its underperforming competitors.) - honeymonster, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3Apple/the music industry is basically being accused of price fixing, which it’s not allowed to do due to competition laws. It’s a typical result of a company having a monopoly over a market. This’ll only be good for consumers, the EU is flawed in its own way but it does provide good consumer and environmental protection.
- redlemon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1experts say is a meaningless statement in the age of information, experts say.
- DeskFlyer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Because a gazillion of dollars in revenue just isn't enough to go around.
(DRTFA) - SmallBoob, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Like it or not, iPod still rocks!
- Kingster, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1"the problem is APPLE IS PREVENTING PEOPLE WITHIN THE EU TO PURCHASE FROM OTHER LOCATIONS IN THE EU!!!!!!
this, in the EU is illegal, if apple doesnt like it, pull out of the whole eu market, otherwise play by their rules
if im in france and pay $2 for a song, then by the EU regulations i should be able to buy the same song in germany for $1 and noone is allowed to stop me, apple however is"
So let me get this straight: Because you are in France, and the cost for the latest Britney tune is $2 (NOT on iTunes)... But you happen to know that it is cheaper in Germany... How would you get it? You'd have to travel there (at a cost). Or you'd have to call the shop up and have them ship it to you at a cost.
Apple is doing nothing more. You're in France? You get French prices. You're in Germany, you get Germany pricing.
Hell, if I was Apple, rather than get it to you at the best price I could, I'd just charge all of you the same price - the most expensive one. - inkhead, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2Yes, if Apple says "no" to a recording industry about music. I'm fine with that. It just means the EU won't have itunes. Since I live in the USA this is a fine solution by me. Apple doesn't control WHERE iTunes stores are available and the price, they might have the server control, but they have AGREEMENTS and contracts they have to follow.
Lets see Steve Jobs, when thinking up the iTunes model, thought "I know!!! lets build lots of different stores, so it's hard to maintain!!! Yeah great!!!, now lets make sure nobody in the EU can buy cool tunes from Japan!!! Sweet, oh and Lets raise the price, that will show them we want their business!! Great!!!!"
It WOULD MAKE APPLE MORE MONEY IF WE COULD ALL BUY FROM A STORE THAT LET ME SELECT ANY AREA. APPLE LOSES MONEY BY NOT HAVING THIS. I'd love to buy music from other cultures.
Now STFU. - cleverboy, on 10/12/2007, -11/+6Meh. This probe has less to do with Apple and more to do with the music industry. Apple was required by the music industry to have a different standard of pricing in different countries. If this methodology doesn't match the spirit or written law of the European Union, then they can take it up with the RIAA or IFPI as the case may be. May just be another facet of the complex implications of the online globalized marketplace.
EMI insisted that it does not set "retail" prices, but "wholesale prices" in its recent DRM-free deal with Apple, however, in setting those "wholesale prices" it would seem to have significant influence over retail pricing parity on a per country basis as well. Given the digital landscape and the constant fluctuation of exchange rates (not to mention dual currencies like the Pound and the Euro), I can't imagine not giving them (the industry) a lot of lattitude on this issue. I'm curious what form this influence takes on music stores that have been less interesting, not to mention less transparent (requiring memberships and floating balances) than iTunes is. Given this virtual currency... it all sounds really messy.
Probe away! - thehuntedpossum, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3and i don't want to know what it finds...
- inkhead, on 10/12/2007, -9/+4THIS IS A LIE. The EU Commission Cleared Apple yesterday in a statement saying the record labels were forcing Apple to limit access by location as well as music prices by location.
How is it people get this on the front page of Digg? Can they not read? Modded down for inaccurate information. We need a new choice "Flat out Lie!" - InfidelAl, on 10/12/2007, -10/+4"The Commission wants consumers to be able to shop around for the best prices for music downloads across Europe and objects, for example, to the fact that digital downloads in the U.K. and Demmark are more expensive than elsewhere in Europe. In a statement an E.U. spokesman said the focus of the investigation was primarily on the record companies who, he said "imposed" variable pricing arrangements on Apple."
Who are they to say what Apple can/cannot charge? Too expensive to buy from iTunes from one location then buy from a different company... - Nasikabatrachus, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3"Apple/the music industry is basically being accused of price fixing, which it’s not allowed to do due to competition laws. It’s a typical result of a company having a monopoly over a market. This’ll only be good for consumers, the EU is flawed in its own way but it does provide good consumer and environmental protection."
So, the E.U. knows better than the consumers, who allowed this to happen in the first place? So, following that logic, consumers ought to be forced to subsidize underperforming companies, since that means there will be more companies offering services to compete against. Yes, that's right: and prevent them from ever raising or lowering their prices, so they will never gain a larger market share than any of their competitors!
These ideas are really absurd when you follow them through. The model of "perfect competition," which was created to justify anti-trust laws, really means no competition at all. REAL competition is a dynamic process; companies should be able to rise or fall by their merits as judged by consumers, not the arbitrary tinkerings of a self-interested bureaucrat in the back rooms of the halls of power. - Nasikabatrachus, on 10/12/2007, -10/+0@ coolspray
You missed the point as well. I was not asking about what apple was doing, I was asking why certain people have the right to jail/fine others for refusing to take place in voluntary interactions. Does the EU own all of europe? By what claim? If so, are they just renting out the land to its citizens? If this is the case, why do they get to jail/fine those who do not aggress against others merely because the interaction did or did not take place on their land? Do I have that right as well? - Nasikabatrachus, on 10/12/2007, -14/+2So, because some people decided that selling at different prices in different places is wrong, it is? What gives them the right to aggress against those who engage in voluntary interactions that they don't like?
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