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- wageslaven, on 10/12/2007, -20/+84Is anyone else concerned about Apple's apparent patent squatting? I mean really "Accelerated scroll via a thumbwheel?" Ive had touch pad keyboards for years...with the same features... sure, this is a circle, and mine's been a square, but really?
With Jobs boasting "over 500000 patents" on the iphone, Im wondering why Apple gets a pass on all this "One Click" patent squatting? - emorphien, on 10/12/2007, -9/+37What is with this immature "apple deserves to do whatever they want because they're Apple" attitude? Really, are you that mindless?
- JasonCox, on 10/12/2007, -3/+30So Apple is patenting a circual touchpad? Can I patent a triangular one then?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+29So it looks like this....
http://www.oaktreeent.com/web_photos/Telephones/Crosley_CR-64_Candlestick_Telephone_black.jpg - tekz0r, on 10/12/2007, -6/+31alanflores
you're an idiot. you obviously don't understand a thing about the u.s. patent system and how ridiculously structured it is -- become informed, and then reexamine your statement. - merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -1/+26Apple doesn't really have much choice. With the system as it is, you have to patent everything, or else someone else will do so after the fact, and sue you. Sure, you can successfully defend the patent by showing prior art, but it takes a lot of legal work, time, and money.
The USPTO is at fault here, not apple. - fivestarsoul, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23But dont you see? This one is CIRCULAR, and made by APPLE!
- Dayyve, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20Leopards gonna be late because Apple has been standing in line at the patent office.
- weizilla, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12I was thinking that only with the traditional telephone dial ring where you have to spin it all the way around
- FTLJohnson, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14I'm gonna patent one shaped like the old UPN logo.
- Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12"With Jobs boasting "over 500000 patents" on the iphone, Im wondering why Apple gets a pass on all this "One Click" patent squatting?"
I thought it was 200 patents..
I'm still awaiting Apple's rumored (by me) multi-touch keyboard with display replacing keys and mouse completely. - impedance101, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Hmm.. inputting numbers with a wheel, i think ive seen that somewhere before. Oh wait..
http://www.deerparkinfo.com/telephones/cr64_brushed_brass.jpg - Akidan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Sorry, you'll have to wait in line behind my 'triangular tires' patent.
- nickway, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't apple invent the touch pad?
So what's the big deal if they patent a circular one? - Dumbledorito, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6While I applaud any computer company for innovations on existing technology (i.e. I loved it when multimedia controls started showing up on keyboards), wholesale replacing of standardized features is sometimes not the greatest idea.
I'd wager that Apple will start selling separate 10-key pads in the same manner they sold clip-on shells for those "puck" mice they used to make. - hmmdar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Isnt there already keyboards will scrolling functionality like this? I know i've seen laptops will scrollbars on them
- johnpaul191, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6take out whatever Apple bias you have....
consider all the deals they have had to make between iPods and other Apple hardware+software, they don't seem to have a choice. i think it's more a matter of them having to play the game as the rules currently are. their lawyers have had to fight or work deals on a lot of patent issues in the last few years, it's a lot cheaper to cut this stuff off in the beginning and protect your designs.
the Apple patents make news because they produce a lot of hardware (compared to somebody like Microsoft), and it is a look into potential future products. hardware patents are a lot more interesting than software patents. Apple does develop more than its share of innovative engineering solutions. then consider that few other companies have such a rabid rumor mill. that's why these generate pseudo-news. i bet Microsoft has as many patents (or more?), but far less are about hardware considering that's really not their main focus. - zeejay, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The patent system sucks, but if Apple *doesn't* patent stuff like this, and someone else does, they're screwed, no matter how stupid or obvious the idea may be. Like when Creative sued them (and won, basically) over their patent for navigating menus on a handheld device, which is one of the most laughably obvious ideas ever.
That said, a click wheel on my keyboard might be cool, depending on how it's supported in software. - DeFex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3a "click" wheel is a rotary encoder with "clicks" there are already keyboards with rotary encoders (such as any with a volume control)
someone should, using lawyerspeak to confuse the patent office. patent putting keys on a keyboard. - omigulay, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3they should have it on their macbook too lol
- FTLJohnson, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I hope they change the patent system so that it stops stifling innovation. I'm sure that even if they do change it one day, that the government will keep their money (all those who have paid for patents). Ordinarily I might feel bad, but screw them for contributing into that terrible system of aggression.
- flag564, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Dodecahedron FTW!
- leoedin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3A lot of laptops have a scrollbar on the touchpad that allows you to run your finger along it to scroll down pages.
Not the same as a scroll wheel.
Patents are a mess, and the only way to fix them is the breakdown of captalism, or to wait 25 years before any innovation actually happens. - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Can I patent a triangular one then?"
Yes! Go for it. Design patents are usually pretty expensive, and of course you have to prove yourself the original designer of said touchpad, but if so, go for it! Design patents have relatively short half-lives, so be warned, you might want to get started manufacturing, oh, yesterday. Remember once again, Design Patents only cover the look and feel of the device, not the utility. - Dumbledorito, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Don't you know that computer innovation is fueled by hatred for other people's systems?
http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2007-02-14 - yournamehere, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1your design is flawed in that there are no spring loaded keys to give way to the pressure ones fingers exerts every time they hit a key. if there is nothing to alleviate the pressure then your fingers will take the brunt of it and will become tired/sore much faster than that of a regular keyboard.
what you need is something that your fingers can manipulate while taking pressure off the fingers and giving back tactile feed. - Lennalf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well, it's not like anybody would ever use a computer for data entry of any kind.
(extreme sarcasm) - Dumbledorito, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@yournamehere: I vote for a keyboard/input device patterned on a nice set of breasts. Perhaps RealDoll and Logictech can partner?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1http://www.telephonelines.net/collecters_photos/6124.jpg
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2You know what would be nice? A real goddamned DELETE key on Apple laptops.
They should spend less time dicking around with ***** like this patent and more time fixing gross lapses of common sense in their products. - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Should this be allowed? Absolutely not. "
There are different /kinds/ of patents. This is a kind of patent called a "Design" patent, meaning it only covers the look and feel of the device, not the "innovation" of the device. Like everyone said, keyboards with touchpads exist, but Apple's design of a keyboard with a clickwheel is something they will want to protect so other companies won't manufacture them (except maybe some Chinese cloners who don't give a damn about international copyrights and patents).
So no, this isn't a patent we should give a damn about, unless you like good design. Spend your time on people patenting algorithms/logic steps. - kodek, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21. Stop using caps.
2. It would impossible, as a "multi-touch" pad isn't all software. - texref, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2So just buy a two-button mouse and use it with a Mac ... that's what I (and most people) do.
- HonoredMule, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1...it could easily be constructed as a foam-backed highly flexible surface (maybe even textile) to maximize the range of forgiving motion (albeit at the cost of display flexibility, now a standard image would have to be printed and replaced only by replacing the print sheet). But before we start delving into possibly cost-prohibitive engineering feats, just stop repeating that "keyboard" mantra you have locked into your head. Touch!
- flarn2006, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The keyboard in the drawing looks kinda like the back of an old CPU tower. You know, the keys are the grilles and ports, and the clickwheel is the fan...
- Makr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2
I can see this being really useful for editing. aside from people that use excel or other number input uses how many times does your right hand go over to the numeric keypad? - ialan2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1but is there actually any point to this? would this confuse users?
just wondering. - jenshik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You haven't typed on an IBM model M.
- HonoredMule, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Just because a surface gives way doesn't mean it reduces the pressure. You have to press a key enough to make it go down, and I'd have to touch the surface hard enough to register a keypress (which could be as minimal as a light brushing of skin, if I could have it that sensitive and maintain accuracy...some touch surfaces respond to mere proximity). The absence of receding keys only matters if you try to hack at the surface like you would a keyboard, which would feel very similar to the strain I put on myself when I switch from a manual keyboard (where you have to literally strike the keys) to a computer keyboard (where simply pushing them down suffices). Ironic parallel, no?
Here's another ironic parallel. I put more strain on my fingers through repetitively clicking a mouse button than I do through repetitively tapping a trackpad.
Finally, there's no reason the surface can't be a soft one that recedes from fingers accidentally pushed too far. It doesn't have to be made out of slate rock after all. - prockcore, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Tomorrow's news: Apple sues the makers of Tempest's spinner for patent infringement.
- yournamehere, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1touchscreen? i've used them.. but not to type out things for work which would require much more pounding per day. it's a simple matter of physics really:if the device you are using doesn't absorb some of the pressure your fingers exert to type something then your fingers will take the brunt of it all. i know we are talking about very small amounts of pressure but over the course of a day it adds up.
- ChumpChief, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I want a keyboard with two click wheels, so I can practice my wicked DJ skills.
- HonoredMule, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"I'm still awaiting Apple's rumored (by me) multi-touch keyboard with display replacing keys and mouse completely." - Ireland
I've a slight suspicion that you may have taken the idea directly from semi-recent posts of mine, but heck, that's a rumor I'll happily spread. If it catches on, maybe Apple (or better yet, some company that caters to a wider audience and also makes good hardware, like Logitech) will really make one. Do it right...and I'll be one of their first buyers. Imagine being able to completely switch layouts (even to custom designed ones for games and such) on the fly, and being able to both tap keystrokes and sweep mouse movements without moving your arms at all.
I can hear the endless stream of naysayers pointing out design flaws, but they're all fixable. Fingers resting on the pad would not be keystrokes unless on modifier keys perhaps. All other keystrokes would need substantial pressure (to facilitate holding a key down or pressing keys the fingers are already resting on) or a quick touch and release. For most typists, slightly textured j and f keys should be sufficient tactile response (you can convince yourself of this by simply "acting out" typing on a flat surface, and where you may tend to go off the edges of keys now without tactile response, remember that you would then be able to scale/skew/rotate/bend/etc. the keyboard to better fit your hands. I'm also confident that a little engineering expertise and creativity can produce a more substantial tactile response both in terms of "is the key pressed" without compromising usage as a track pad (with a soft surface that has a hard stop to the depth of softness, a "knocking" on your finger to acknowledge the press, or some such manner). And we haven't even started talking about advanced algorithms automatically learning from your usage how to better adjust the layout to your hands, or following your "floating" hand placement. Basically, all these "problems" are actually opportunities to make the Touchboard (TM) (or iTouch, if Apple does it) way better than a normal keyboard.
I would also expect such a device to use circular scrolling and normal scroll wheels, so it looks like Apple may have a corner on my favorite product that doesn't exist (yet). Also, there would need to be a huge range in "mouse" sensitivity settings, and on-the-fly setting switches for temporarily using the surface as an easel for example. Mouse pointer control could potentially be way better than a normal trackpad, mostly just because of the large surface available for use. Simply put, such a device would be wickedly awesome, and I'd even plop down 2-300 for one, unlike for that stupid LED key keyboard vaporware.
So yes. I also hear that Apple is making "multi-touch keyboard with display replacing keys and mouse completely." Spread the word. Since it's Apple making it, you know it will be cool, and since everyone will love that Apple's making it (because it's Apple), they WILL. ;-) THAT'S how the rumor mill REALLY works. It won't be the first time Apple's made a product because the hype preceded the plans. - NikZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Actually, the iScroll2 hack does offer a "circular" scroll gesture to the 2-finger scrolling trackpad on many Apple *books. I tried it when it came out some months back, but found it rather awkward.
- NikZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The patent is for an iPod-like scroll wheel, not a scroll wheel like on the MS Intellitouch keyboards. The following is a pic of prototype concept by Synaptics, the folks who developed & supplied various generations of iPod scroll wheel.
http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6107951-3.html?tag=ne.gall.pg - jenshik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm beginning to dislike Apple.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well, i've got a patent on patents! hahaha!
- icecoldtrashcan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1AFAIK, you can call up a touch-keyboard on the iPhone's screen. And, since you scroll with the touch screen anyway, the wheel is made kind of redundant - though, I would be annoyed by not being able to continuously scroll as you can with the wheel.
- HonoredMule, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yournamehere: Your understanding of the design is flawed, because you don't have to apply much pressure to the surface...only lightly tap it, or add a slight burst of light pressure if your finger is already on the key's area. I'm not saying it wouldn't take some getting used to, but it would NOT increase strain on fingers, because the amount of force you apply is up to YOU. Coming from someone who's used old-school manual typewriters, trust me. It could be a LOT worse. In this case, pressure sensitivity could be adjusted to optimize accuracy vs. strain, and if you don't try to treat it like a manual typewriter, it won't treat you like one would.
You've used a touch screen before, right? Well the only difference here is the quality of responsiveness, which we know can be brought to appropriate standards by how well track pads emulate mouse clicks by tapping on the surface. If you've used McDonald's touch-screen cash registers, you'll know how much insensitivity can suck, but even those can be used for 8 hours a day without significant finger strain.
...and you can probably glean from my responses that I do a fair bit of typing. Tactile response issues and concerns are certainly not something I've not fully considered. There's just that trap of expecting one product to BE another instead of REPLACING it. - greenjohnsmith, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1What is the problem with just using the arrow keys and the enter button for moving within the interface. What a wonderful idea. Now they can charge their customers more than necessary should for a keyboard. Kinda like Apple does for all of its products.
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