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Apple Deja Vue: will they pull it off this time?

techremarks.com — This is the dawn of the post-PC era, and Apple is leading it while Microsoft is clinging to the PC model even for the living room. Will Apple get a second chance for market leadership?

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  • FearNLoathing, on 10/12/2007, -7/+41I think the author brings up an interesting point about supporting and retiring technologies. Because Apple controls hardware and software, there is nothing forcing them to support or keep supporting something. They can be ahead of the curve by implementing new technologies simultaneously in their OS, all of the iApps, and their hardware. Microsoft simply cannot do this.
    • Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -24/+11Good article! it's all true :P
    • kingace, on 10/12/2007, -16/+35It's a good thing for MIcrosoft to allow 3rd parties to develop software. I'm happy with MS simply
      providing Windows - as they say, do one thing, and do it well. If MS diverted focus from Windows development for something like gaming, than Windows wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is.
      Plus, Apple is only ahead of the curve with their own proprietary iApps software for their own users - which there are considerable less of when compared to Windows users. Likewise, Apple only "controls hardware and software" among apple users.

      Microsoft simply cannot do this, and that's a damn good thing! It's because of the massive library of terrific third-party software that Windows is so much more popular.
    • skyshock21, on 10/12/2007, -23/+37And how many times does this have to be said:

      Until Apple has a network operating environment that can compete with Microsoft's Active Diretory and Novell's eDirectory/NDS they will only be a toy for home use.

      Right now, Apple simply cannot do this.
    • TheCount, on 10/12/2007, -12/+34It's funny, Sony does the same thing apple does (keeping their system closed, including making their own accessories for their own devices) and we say they are idiots. Apple does it, and they are completely reinventing the industry for the better. A double standard?
    • heavyphotons, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16@skyshock21:

      If you're going to make a comment like that, would you please elaborate (because most of us are non-enterprise users) on where Open Directory is inadequate in comparison with Active Directory and eDirectory?

      http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/features/opendirectory.html
    • jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9the whole argument is ipod centric. From the appliant-ising of a media device, comparing it to a phone, and then applying it to a pc isn't quite right, at least for a large proportion of people. It would be fine, if lets say, i only wanted to use the bog standard apps on a pc, like i can only do with my ipod, and phone. It would be fine, if lets say, i wanted to monopolise a market and stay away from open, free, and customisable PCs, like i have with my ipod. Alas, a pc isn't an ipod, which is why we have ipods, and PCs. The luggage that microsoft supports is exactly the same luggage that the core buyers of windows operating systems want; hardware legacy support, application support dating back over a decade; it's there for those that want it, and you know what, it's not that which is making any of the microsoft operating systems unstable - microsoft had that stuff licked in NT4. For the most part the things that break the microsoft operating system are
      a) massively open hardware support WITH badly written buggy drivers
      b) bad user security model
      c) OS services being ebedded in the kernal

      b and c are supposedly being fixed in vista - although we should wait until after the beta to see how well b works out - some people still have their doubts. point a was attempted to be fixed in windows 2000, but for those people that buy their PCs from the Dells, HPs, or PCWorlds (or whatever the equivelant is in the states) they get as much of a closed hardware build as you're going to get - all the hardware will come with WHQL certified drivers, and most of the kit is to a reasoble standard.

      Yes, ultimately, the apple hardware market saturation figure may go up some, but when each mac is able to run windows through boot camp, and people actually get to see and use a mac you will see a nice split down the middle between
      - i've tried osx and it's nice, i'll continue to use mac os
      - i've tried osx and i don't like it, i'll continue to use windows

      when shall we see the day when steve turns off support for boot camp, disables it on all those macs that auto update, and piss off a ***** load of people... :-))
    • superal1394, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14@TheCount

      The difference between Sony and Apple is when Sony does it, its draconian and nothing works right, when Apple does it, its elegant, rather open, and works like it is supposed to. For example, the iPod is the simplest MP3 player to purchase, get music for and put music on it, and protect. Sonys MP3 players insist on using their unbelievably complex programs, or Windows Media Player, both of which cannot compare to iTunes.
    • skyshock21, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8@heavyphotons

      Open Directory basically only allows you to authenticate to a windows domain controller for the purpose of mapping a network drive, or possibly to use an Exchange account. This is hardly comperable to Active Directory or eDirectory where such an architecture grants you the ability to enforce group policies, push out software packages, authenticate against either ISA server or BorderManager... NOT TO MENTION: Almost all corporate software which allows you to set group policy restrictions local to that software package does so by authenticating to Active Directory and some packages also offer Novell integration.

      I would like to see one (just ONE!) ERP pacakge that takes advantage of Open Directory. It's my feeling that Apple basically took Open LDAP and converted it for their platform just to say "Yeah, we do directory services too!" when really when you compare it to the robust AD or NDS, it's absolutely laughable at best. Apple still has a LONG way to go before they can say they're enterprise ready with OSX.
    • rubeus, on 10/12/2007, -7/+5@kingrace
      "It's a good thing for MIcrosoft to allow 3rd parties to develop software. I'm happy with MS simply
      providing Windows - as they say, do one thing, and do it well. If MS diverted focus from Windows development for something like gaming, than Windows wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is.
      Plus, Apple is only ahead of the curve with their own proprietary iApps software for their own users - which there are considerable less of when compared to Windows users. Likewise, Apple only "controls hardware and software" among apple users.

      Microsoft simply cannot do this, and that's a damn good thing! It's because of the massive library of terrific third-party software that Windows is so much more popular."
      =============================================

      I think you would do good to remember that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is necessarily the best choice/quality. I think Windows sells today because of monopolistic business practices, uninformed complacent consumers, and lack of easy alternative choices. You can't get Linux or OS X, or any other non-MS OS pre-installed on your Dell, HP, Gateway, Sony computer, but you do get a copy of MS Windows included in the purchase price whether you like it or not. ;-) I don't think that's popularity, I think that's kinda fascist. So, it's not consumers love of windows that supports it's sales, it's the virulent like means of dissemination that support your popularity argument. (It's true that Apple also sales OSX pre-installed on it's computers which I think is bad too. Ideally there would be an option to buy a system without the OS installed for a lower price.)

      Also, in what way is it true that MS focuses just on Windows? MS has been creating game software for some time in side with Windows Development, MS Flight Simulator right? Also, I think you trying to use the word proprietary in way to make Apple look bad, Microsoft's productivity software is proprietary as well, so what's that point of saying it? "Plus, Apple is only ahead of the curve with their own proprietary iApps software for their own users - which there are considerable less of when compared to Windows users." What does that mean? Who else would Apple write software for? And what does the user size have to do with being "ahead of the curve" ? I agree when you say that Apple has a tight control over the hardware. As for controlling software, they freely distribute their own Programming IDE "XCode"; Apple writes software for their operating systems as well as numerous third-party sources as well, so how is the software controlled by them?
    • foolfromhell, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6Will they pull it off? and Become market leaders?
      My wallet says no...
    • mindtrap, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Well I am already getting disappointed that some of my older Windows games and software no longer works on NT and XP.

      Although I do believe that Microsoft should drop all this old technology such as what Apple does, they should try to keep their Windows software backwards compatible; more so than it is now. I think that soon we'll be getting to the point where people will expect their games to work much like our DVDs still play DVDs that were bought years ago.

      Sure Apple may be on the right track, but as their market share grows, so will user complaints that the new version of Photoshop does't work on their current hardware/software platform cause Apple decided to change CPU or OS again for the umpteenth time.
    • kingace, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3@rubeus
      Look, even though I agree with you, it doesn't matter if something is the best choice/quality, as long as it's popular. Look at Linux - most choices in terms of customizability, most open, largest community, least popular OS. It's a pity, but it's true. Microsoft is a goddamned BUSINESS, dude, it is not a charity organization. A business' aim is to be better and MORE POPULAR than all the competitors, and let us face it: Microsoft won. THe losers call it a monopoly, the winners call it a success. In any case, you can't get Windows or Linux pre-installed on your Apple computers, so that particular point is moot. And you don't get it included in the purchase price - Dell, for example, allows for a no-operating system installation.

      It is in EVERY WAY true that MS focuses just on Windows. MS created less than 5 real games, and they probably didn't redirect any people from the massive amount of Windows developers to develop Age of Empires and Flight Sim. I don't think the word proprietary is negative; I think it applies to the situation. Name 3 big Apple programs (not like iTunes) that were ported to Windows. On the other hand, Microsoft Office exists for Macintosh, as does Internet Explorer, Virtual PC, Microsoft SQL Server, and others.

      Regarding the "controlling" and "ahead of the curve" statements, I was responding to FearNLoathing's statements. He said that apple's software was ahead of the curve of everything else, but it can only be ahead of the curve on Macintosh Computers - as those are the only computers their software really supports. He also said that "Apple controls hardware and software", but I was saying, once again, that they only control their own Hardware and software. Since the only people who use Apple's hardware and software are Apple's users, I referring to the fact that they are ahead of the curve only for a small percentage of computer users.
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3"It is in EVERY WAY true that MS focuses just on Windows. MS created less than 5 real games,"

      XBOX?
      MSN?
      Web TV?
      Internet Explorer?

      What are you talking about. Microsoft does not just focus on Windows.
    • kingace, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@noahhoward
      Um, Internet Explorer? Totally, because we are constantly seeing updates and improvements to that. IE goes under the WIndows list. Web TV is a) part of MSN, and thus redundant and b) is not a big deal at all, as it's a really miniscule thing that Microsoft does. Likewise, MSN hasn't seen a real update in years. And the Xbox is gaming development and hardware, not homeoffice software, so is unrelated.
    • sinembarg0, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@kingace

      You make it sound like Apple does not let anyone write software for their computers. Way to go
  • estvir, on 10/12/2007, -46/+20leading it ? let us compare market shares and see who is leading who.

    this article seems like some tired mac fan crying about microsoft coming off #1 and makes silly 'lolz they stole eveything from mac and put it in windows.'

    how about one of you people who say they stole from mac, post some proof, NONE of you ever have.. and don't get me started on the gui, there's a long history to that none of you know and ms didn't copy apple as they didn't invent it & so on.

    microsoft is clinging to the living room with media centre ? what the heck is apple's front row then and their promises of a true media centre type pc ?

    it's been said time and time again, apple can do whatever the hell they want with their os and it will affect a tiny percentage, when microsoft does something, it actually has work to do instead of just sitting there with their own closed platform ignoring the outside world, because in the pc os market, mac os is sure being ignored.


    "10-15% US market share before 2010"

    anyone laugh out loud when they read that ? i thought this was the [apparent] superior company, in every way ? if they're so damn good, they should've had the dominance since the first apple mac, yet they don't.
    • Antialias, on 10/12/2007, -9/+24Personally, I don't care if they ever get over 10% market share. There's a ton of software for the platform at their current market share, so I can't see that many advantages to growing more. Heck, I even own a ton of apple stock and I still will be perfectly happy if they don't take over the market. They are doing a great job of making the best computer experience available today, and growing to monolithic size can only slow them down.
    • aroot, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19> how about one of you people who say they stole from mac, post some proof, NONE of you ever have..

      I'm not a mac guy, but I'm pretty sure microsoft stole the trashcan idea. No, wait! Windows has a recycle bin, not a trash can. How silly of me!
    • mrman5917, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22I think you are missing the point estvir. When he says leading it, it doesn't necessarily mean market share. Leading doesn't mean you are #1 in every instance, but changing the way things are done. Look at Windows and the innovations (yes I called them that) that Microsoft had to put in to keep up. If a company that only has 5% of the market can change the course of a company that has 90% of the market, then I would call that a leader.

      Microsoft has done a lot of good, and I will be upgrading to Vista. However, don't think that they would have done it tmesleves if it weren't for that little company leading the way into a new real of media integration.
    • gavroche, on 10/12/2007, -15/+8Apple already had almost 100% market share once
    • IcanFLY, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14What we really need is for apple to stop trying to act so special and being difficult about dealing with 3rd party software and hardware. If Apple could actually increase its market share, particularly in the business world, then Microsoft might have a bit more pressure to improve. This would mean things are better for everyone if there is real competition. A great deal of revenue from windows comes from business and government.
    • replica, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4@shrimpdesign

      XEROX also let Bill Gates tour their labs. So, Apple and Microsoft both copied what they saw at the PARC facilities.
    • mindtrap, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Apple has held on for a long time with a small market share and have taken lots of great risks, more so than any other company I know of. And they are still around. Any entity that is still clinging on after so long is definitely a force to be reckoned with.

      Microsoft simply needs to make a few mistakes and they will. They've been sitting fat and comfy for far too long. And really the only reason they're still around is because they have the money and brute force to do it, but very little brain. I find very little difference between Windows 98 and Windows XP from a usability stand-point. Nothing has been made easier. Rather, things have been made more complicated.

      Windows really is just a cash cow which never really added any additional value as new versions have appeared.
    • generic109, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1I'm unsure just how the user is benefited by marketshare. It seems to be hurting MS's customers today: not just because of legacy technology, but because of the culture that must be created that puts domination ahead of product quality. Personally, I want Apple to flourish, but I don't want them to become a monopoly. I would rather have open source take over MS's functions and let Apple do its thing. Here's a question to all users--why should you give a ***** about marketshare?
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1"What we really need is for apple to stop trying to act so special and being difficult about dealing with 3rd party software and hardware."

      How are they being difficult about it? They were using an Open Kernel, they make their developer package freely available. Third Party software makers just don't market for OS most of the time. If I was a developer and saw that one operating system was being pushed onto the market I'd develop for tht one too.

      It has nothing to do with Apple.
    • startrek, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2@replica

      Thank God that somebody knows their history. Good job for getting your facts straight :)
    • d4rkn1ght, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Shrimpdesign wrote:

      “It seems you don't know your history. Xeorox PARC recieved a millions dollars worth of Apple stock for letting them tour and use ideas from the PARC research facilities. Then Microsoft stole those ideas from Apple without the exchange of money.

      Maybe you should think before asumming that "that none of you know" about the history of the personal computer's GUI.”

      Not to mention that some of those Xerox engineers became Apple engineers after they saw what they could do with Apple.

      The main people at Xerox didn’t take the GUI seriously.

      In those days the GUI interface was something of a joke to all the other companies. Until Apple showed what they could do with it, and then companies like Microsoft bought into it.
  • ipodman715, on 10/12/2007, -17/+10By the way, it's deja vu. :P
    • Momus, on 10/12/2007, -11/+23Actually, it's déjà vu.
    • ipodman715, on 10/12/2007, -14/+7Yes, uber technically.
    • felchdonkey, on 10/12/2007, -6/+19I believe you mean über technically.
    • adwordspoet, on 10/12/2007, -7/+8Yes it's dj vu. Dj is an adverb meaning 'already'. Vu is the past participle of the verb 'voir' (to see). It means 'already seen'. "Vue" is a noun for vision which is obviously grammatically and semantically incorrect.

      Oh, and there's nothing technical about it. It's called spelling.
  • fatlip, on 10/12/2007, -6/+27wow, this article isnt one-sided at all
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4It's kind of meant to be one sided... it's a look at Apple... not the computer industry as a whole.
  • editopen, on 10/12/2007, -10/+8yes, a very good article. It does not bash. It just points out the obvious very nicely and clearly. Apple has it right at the moment. I found the discussion about closed OS/hardware in the past no longer being relevant. Infact, where it put Apple down in the past, will bring them up in the future. I had never considered it like that...
  • calande, on 10/12/2007, -23/+11I hope not. I don't like Apple products, and I don't like OS X. I prefer MS Windows XP.
    • Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -17/+11Your not alone, there's lost more idiots who'll back you up Bill ;)
    • mrman5917, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16The point is that you have that choice. I use both on a daily basis, and they both have their weaknesses and their strengths. You prefer XP... but what if, due to a lack of competition and changing ideas of what a computer should be, you were still using windows 3.1 derivatives? The point here, is that market shares change, we are all better for it. OS 9 on the Mac side could not compete with windows. Hell, even the first couple of releases of OS X couldn't. But they are able to now. Microsoft made Apple step up to the plate and now its Microsoft's turn.
  • yatin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14i'm not a one-sided fan of microsoft of apple (both have had their good and bad innovations and technologies) but i found it ranther short-sighted to say that "cutting the cord" on old technologies is good....many large corporations depend on older technologies to function, because the cost of switiching to new technologies and learning new technologies is simply too high, so the less often they do it, the better. MS can't afford to cut the cord like Apple, because they would alienate too many people and break tons of software (the main advantage of Windows is its widespread compatibility and the software available for it)...
    • mrman5917, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Since Apple has had such a small and devoted market share, they have been able to do it. When they make a change, it sucks, but the whole system benefits from it. If Microsoft only had a 5% marketshare, you better bet that they would have cut a lot of the old technologies that were weighing them down.
    • nxusername, on 10/12/2007, -12/+2>> MS can't afford to cut the cord...

      Innovate or die. I've done fine without a serial port and floppy for years. You can get USB emulators if you really need them. And if you really need them, you need to upgrade or die.

      >> the main advantage of Windows is its widespread compatibility...

      The main disadvantage of Windows is an ***** development platform that makes it unstable and insecure.
    • aroot, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5> the main advantage of Windows is its widespread compatibility and the software available for it

      I was under the impression that the main advantage of windows was that it's bundled with pretty much every pre-built PC today.
  • MySchizoBuddy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7Microsoft Stock versus Apple Stock Comparison for the last 5 years. Speaks for itself
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MSFT&t=5y&l=off&z=m&q=l&c=AAPL
    • gavroche, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12Thats mostly due to iTune music store and iPods, not computers
    • MySchizoBuddy, on 10/12/2007, -14/+3i guess u don't read the Finance report do ya.
      Apple HAS sold more Macs than before cause of the Halo Effect.
    • gavroche, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5and i said mostly and yes its mostly due to iTunes music store and iPods.
    • replica, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7What halo effect? They were at 2% Market share before the ipod and they are still at 2%. They have not gained any market share.

      The 5% is US market share. The 2% is world wide.

      http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/April/os.php
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Your link shows Countershare, not Marketshare - the results are dependant on the kinds of things people are using the counters for.
    • joe0891, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1If the dot com boom taught us anything, is that stocks prices mean nothing for a tech company. Investors are fickle, and Apple has been riding on the iPod = soaring stock!

  • tobsterius, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Jobs is aware of the mistakes that Apple made when they were the market leader in the 80's. Given the fact that Jobs is a more mature and seasoned business man, he won't allow Apple to make these mistakes again. Granted, that doesn't mean Apple won't make an entirely different set of mistakes but I think Apple will make the right moves this time around.
    • yonnetti, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1It's not a template, it's a rip off. But what ever, no reason for you to be a "dicky" about it.
  • yonnetti, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1Ah, doesn't that site's design look like Douglas Bowman's "Stopdesign" site?
    http://www.stopdesign.com/
    • Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1It's called using the same template, big swinging dicky! Probably both used rapidweaver. Nothing better to do?
  • gaius_baltar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Yay for eliminating dumbass legacy ports! I often wonder why brand new Lenovo IBM Thinkpads have stupid purple parallel ports on the back. No one uses that. Get rid of it!
    • mikm, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5I use my ThinkPad's parallel port quite often
    • deaxes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2For older printers, it's pretty much the only way to go. That is unless you want to use those centronics 36 to usb cable, which is infuriating to use. I tried it once, the drivers sucked.
    • salmonmoose, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Parallel ports are also a very simple method to interface with other proprietary hardware, it's much easier to build the electronics to work with one than say a USB port; Many industrial equipment relies on that port to interface with computers, and laptops are the obvious choice.
  • ChuckTaylor, on 10/12/2007, -15/+19lol. people kill me sometimes.

    5% of the market, yet this is the beginning of the post-pc era huh?
    you really need to step out of your fanboy costume and look at how integrated microsoft is into peoples homes, and most importantly, their jobs. Its practically woven into the fiber of society in one form or another.

    Apples integration pretty much begins and ends with an ipod at this point.
    • Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -22/+8"Apples integration pretty much begins and ends with an ipod at this point." Your brain pretty much begins and ends up your ass ;)
    • axemachine, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11You got them where it hurts. No wonder the curse and hate.
    • threepio, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Post PC was indicating "Post Personal Computer" - as in the end to the device that's used for web surfing, email and office work.

      The article is implying that we're entering into an age where your machine must be capable of more than you've previously asked from it - streaming media around the house, home automation, acting as a media library for multiple points of consumption and integrated previously untapped elements - your digital media players, cellphones, even your running shoes to create a new end user experience. Again, it must be *capable* of it - these are things that have been promised in the past, but were never produced with any degree of consistency.
  • Furg, on 10/12/2007, -9/+10As far as credibility goes, this article has slim to none. How can you mess up when spelling Deja VU.. you spell it how it sounds, not all that hard.

    A Deja Vue would be a version of a crappy Saturn car.
  • irbdavid, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12If Apple's market share in the PC world rises above even 20-30% they'll no longer be fun. Half the reason to get a mac is for that self-satisfied, elitist feeling! Hopefully the appeal that a dirt-cheap beige box has to joe-user will remain and they'll continue to 'vote with their wallet' against Apple and keep Dell/MS with the majority market share.
  • user98887, on 10/12/2007, -10/+13Yet another dull inaccurate apple story by some macophile.

    You might notice apple's leading the market in downloading music, not computers.
  • inkswamp, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6I admit I didn't read the article, but comparing the iPod to the Mac is silly for numerous reasons.

    1. Apple NEVER had the marketshare and mindshare with the Mac that they have with the iPod.

    2. Apple's promotion and marketing of the Mac was weak, relying on evangelizing the product and a naive belief that if something is just plain good enough, people will flock to it. Wrong. The iPod is being marketed the way the Mac should have been.

    3. Incompatibility. The early Macs were loaded with proprietary stuff and didn't play nice with other PCs in lots of ways. The iPod is compatible with a wide range of products, including both Mac and Windows. It can play a wide variety of formats (sort of the equivalent of being compatible with lots of software.)

    4. Hardware/feature superiority. The iPod may not be the hands-down best hardware/feature-set you can get, but it competes in that arena a helluva lot better than the early Macs did.

    5. Pushing the boundaries. Apple let the Mac languish, believing that it could coast on the unique interface. By comparison, Apple has been pushing the iPod's limits at every turn, doing new things with it and expanding into various markets.

    Like I said, I didn't read the article, but worrying about Apple getting a "second chance" doesn't make sense. They are handling the iPod totally differently than how they handled the Mac.
    • gavroche, on 10/12/2007, -7/+71. Apple had that market share once.
      2. remember 1984??
      3. Its not the macs that were incompatible it was the pcs because macs were there before.
      4. I personnally hate the iPods since i got an iPod mini that broke so many time now the warranty is gone i need to pay to repair it even if i didnt broke it.
      5. Apple always innovated their OS and hardware. Something microsoft never did.
    • salmonmoose, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Which iPod do you have? they have the most restrictive set of codec support of any MP3 players - unless you get rid of the beastly system it runs and install something like rockbox.
    • threepio, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3You've clearly never used some of the delightful Sony players ("You want me to... check out... my own music??") or any of the players restricted to Windows Media Player. iTunes is a blessing in comparison.
  • seanspace6, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4i think apple would pull it off. with it's dual boot of windows and mac osx, i think apple would at least get a fair share.

    apple, in my opinion, has a lot of similarities of Nintendo. both lead in their own world, both innovates. and i think both companies can make a comeback with their boot camp and Nintendo Wii.
  • KJSatz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4It's really "déjà vu." Missing the accents doesn't really matter in an English context, but the extra "e" caused me to almost not dig this. At least it was the article that did it wrong, but the poster still failed to correct this, along with the general annoyance of just copying headlines for Digg purposes. Apples are nice, but general OEM PCs aren't going anywhere soon.
  • swimmingbird67, on 10/12/2007, -10/+4apple is a lot better than mircosoft. hopefully leopard will be awesome... but even if it sucked it would still be better than vista.
  • CanYou, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2Nice web site rip-off from Google's newly announced lead designer, Mr. Bowman from stopdesign.com
    • jalenack, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Yeah, I noticed that too. This site is a complete rip off StopDesign. Lame.
  • timmarhy, on 10/12/2007, -9/+9this article is just an apple fanboys mind wank.

    apple has ***** all market share in the pc market - 5% is teh begining of the end huh?

    you think apple will take over pc sales just because of the ipod fad?

    finally, apple will NEVER dominate pc sales, because they are over priced pieces of crap that are so massively restrictive no one but a yuppie wants one.
  • kalphegor, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2"Will Apple get a second chance for market leadership?"

    Only in US, maybe...
  • fatlip, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4also, as pointed out in the article.. apple is hardware AND software.. microsoft is just software.. now in order to accurately compare.. you're going to have to group microsoft with all the hardware manufacturers who make products that microsoft sofware comes on, and then see the differences.
  • culbeda, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3The only thing that is keeping Mac's where they are right now is the iPod, plain and simple. When some of the core Mac app develops decided to start building the software ON WINDOWS and porting it over to PC's, Apple saw the writing on the wall. They pulled a rabbit out of their hat, but when you build your entire model on a gadget, you're just as likely to lose it to one again.

    I have nothing against Mac's, OSX, et al. I'm just tired of hearing how Apple, Ubuntu, etc. are going to destroy the evil Microsoft and so on and so on and so on...

    Had Apple not decided to make it's hardware proprietary in the first place, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Now people praise them for that decision and believe that it will be their key to victory. It hasn't in the last 20 years, I don't see it starting now.
  • sapo916, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I dont like Apple nor Microsoft. Im screwed in Life.
  • heydigital, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3The Apple Mac is closed architecture PC hardware with a proprietary OS. Apple's real stride is now in selling proprietary iPods tied to their closed DRM service and the image that goes with it.
    • UserAgent, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2At least parts of OS X are open source or implement open software. OS X isn't any more "proprietary" than Windows is... and of course Microsoft never tries to imelement DRM in any of its products... It's the recording industry thats behind the DRM, not Apple. Record companies would never have agreed to distribute their songs on the iTMS if there weren't some copy restriction measures in place.
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Microsoft has a DRM too. For the reason stated above.
  • lorensingley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well being an audio editor, I see a lot of studios and have worked on many a Mac and PC, and it's really just that macs are more stable (in my opinion) smoother to operate and , if it matters to you, they look so much better software and hardware wise, which to me makes for a better experience overall. They are expensive, hell yes, but listen. A Honda will get you to where you need to go efficiently and quickly, just like a BMW will, but you know what, if you have the money, what car would you rather have to take you from point A to point B?

    For anyone above a casual gamer, the PC is surely the choice, preferably self-built. Mac doesn't allow you to really have that many choices for what you want in your system, which on top of a lack of games just screams "gamers, don't buy me". And ummm... there are a lot of gamers, me being one myself. That's why I built my PC. My... Honda. With 1000 horsepower...
    • heydigital, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I do audio & video work on both Macs & PCs. I have seen more Macs crash just as much as PCs in my lifetime when doing such work.
  • hyberion, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Why oh why is this the conversation we keep having.

    "Mac is better than windows"
    "Windows is better than Mac"

    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

    As I sit here I have a windows machine on my left, a mac on my right, and a Linux box at my feet. . .each to their own function and each to their strength.

    I am so tired of fan boys from both sides spewing their dogma out and calling it knowledge. "Windows!" "Mac" "Bill!" "Steve!"

    They are just computers. They are not religions. You don't see anybody talking about how much market share Frigidaire has over (insert generic fridge maker here). Or how much better toaster a is over toaster b. . .

    It's insane and it's stupid and its this circular discussion that prevents anybody from doing anything to advance us beyond the crumbs and bones we get from both sides.

    It's the same stupid discussion everybody has about iPods. Don't like them. . don't' use them. . .love them. . use them. But SHUT UP about it. I don't care if you don't like them because they're from apple, just the same that I don't care if you think your iPod is the greatest thing since the antibiotic and light bulbs. Its a device. Use it. Don't. It doesn't matter. None of this matters. Nobody discusses the value of Windows 3.1 VS OS 8 anymore. . .and in ten years it won't matter about these things either.

    In the end, it's what you like, and what you use. And that's it. You like windows. Use it. But don't' tell me I'm wrong or I'm a fan boy because I use something else. And quit acting smug because you use product b and that somehow makes you fell more "enlightened" than the plebes that are using product b.

    It's you, and your talent, and your ability, not the tool you use that determines the worth of the final product. A great novel can be written with a quill. . .a crap novel can be written with Word on an expensive PC.

    It's a tool for crying out loud. Can we all just move on to something else now?


    • flashx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I totally agree with you hyberion. A computer is a tool. Like a snow shovel to clear your drive way or a water kettle to boil your water. No one ever notice or argues about brand names of these things. I use Linux at work, fixes my friends' Windows boxes and use a Mac when I am home. I never tell anyone which OS is superior because I believe what ever OS you use is more superior one. If you think a certain OS gives you the most productivity, then use it. Taking it like a religon is kind of lame!
  • johnie1, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5$3 = PC keyboard
    $30 = Apple keyboard


    PC keyboard will probably last 30 times as long.
    • generic109, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4PC keyboard = Apple keyboard (control panels in OSX to change the function keys)

      every usb pc keyboard works with my mac. idiot.
    • vinny, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3You can use the same keyboard on both systems, so I don't get your point. There is a wide range of prices for almost any product you can buy. I certainly don't make my choice based only on price, I'd bet you don't either.
  • mfearby, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3"Will Apple get a second chance for market leadership?"

    The answer is "no, their hardware is too god-damned expensive". End of discussion.
    • raynevandunem, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2IMO, the only reason why anyone would really want to buy a "Mac" isn't because of the hardware or the OS, but because of the desktop itself. Period.

      Why? Because its an Intel-based personal computer with a Unix-like OS, just like your average Ubuntu or SuSe box. Nothing special about the hardware (except that it historically looks nice) or the Unix flavor that they're using.

      So what sets the Mac apart from your average Linux box? The desktop.

      Apple created a self-sustaining graphics layer (Quartz), one which, metaphorically speaking, poured as much concrete into Darwin (their special flavor of Unix) so as to create a self-sustaining desktop application platform that would allow for as little interaction with the ulterior Unix as possible. Hence, Aqua.

      So they're just using the hardware as a crutch. I mean, yes, Apple, we know that you have transcended the filesystem and created a whole 'nother flight of application development that the other players will probably take years to even make a single step toward reaching. So can you *now* spare us the unneccessarily pricey hardware already?
    • generic109, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1If you think the difference is just the desktop, you don't use OSX a lot. My guess is hardly at all. Stop pulling analyses out our your ass.
  • astraycat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Closed platform has its advantages, and its why Apple's software works more reliably. They don't have to support third party hardware, they don't have much in the way of third party software.

    Microsoft's problems mostly stem from third party software and hardware. It's been a long time since XP itself crashed and BSOD'd on me, but applications crash left and right. Are these applications by Microsoft? Hardly, they're from software companies that for the most part I haven't heard of.

    The same goes for hardware. Microsoft doesn't write the hardware drivers. This leads to more crashing. They couldn't possibly write the drivers for every piece of hardware that's out there, they'd never get anything done.

    This is why Windows Vista is having trouble. Most of the people who are reporting trouble are reporting it with their laptops and their built in WiFi adapters. Sorry, but that kind of hardware just wasn't what they foresaw their testers using. Hardware manufacturers don't have Vista drivers yet, these people complaining that their hardware wasn't supported really have to remember that the people programming Vista are human, and aren't able to support all hardware in a beta release.

    Apple, of course, can. Because their pool for hardware is very small. They control all of it. Apple users expect this. PC users should not. Those that do have either forgotten who writes the drivers for their hardware, or come from the Apple camp.

    In the end, Microsoft will retain most of its market share for the sheer fact that people like to shop around. They like to see that this PC, while the same as another PC, is cheaper. Thus, they feel like they're getting more for their money and feel happier when they buy the damn thing. The only thing that I'd buy from Apple is a laptop, because I really like to pick out which motherboard, which memory, which sound card, blah blah goes into my PC. I love the Mac OS, really, but I'm not willing to give up being able to control what my PC is made out of.

    That said, I'm not touching Vista until I know that all the drivers I need have gone through a couple of revisions for Vista.

    Apple has also said they don't want to be another OS vendor. Allowing their OS to be used on platforms other than their own opens them up to Microsoft's problems with third party companies. They don't want that. Apple users don't want that.
  • gr00vy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3First the comment about Microsoft clinging to the PC model, especially when compared to Apple, is the most incorrect statement I have read here in a long time. Microsoft is in more devices, from webTV, PocketPC, Tablet PC, UltimateTV, Xbox, Cell Phones, MP3 Players, etc, etc... Than Apple. There is simply no comparison.

    But Apple lucked out by defining the MP3 player market and introducing lock-in. About as lucky as MS with OS's. And they play as hard as Microsoft did by all reports, and someday may very well have thier commupance. (though they benefit in that they are playing with other monopolists, and while everyone hates the game, they all love the monopoly).

    But, I will agree the Mac is about to see significant marketshare increase. But NOT market defining share. BMW carry's a lot of prestige, but nearly no marketshare. That is owned by the Toyota Camry. Mac has a big advantage that Dell doesn't have. There is no per computer charge to the OS manufacturer. They do have a big disadvantage compared to Dell, they have to pay thier own R&D.

    Apple is benefiting from the inexolerable deprecation of the "bus", and the fact that computers (with the exception of gaming), are largely fast enough. And in time, even Apple Computers will come with fast enough motherboard based graphics, and the ability to run games natively through boot camp (and gamers have shown that they are not as price sensitive, or tech scared to make games run) that for the home user it will come down to the BMW/Honda decision. And most people will buy Hondas, and most people will want BMW's.

    They will continue to own the creeative professional space. They are going to see a dramatic increase in people that buy thier own machine. But the marketplace worldwide will continue to owned by Microsoft and PC vendors. But Apple will be bigger and more profitable. More people will own Apple products, but quite simply, they are never going to be more than a Niche Player.
  • demonicume, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2M$ and Crapple are playing two different games. M$ is playing for keeps. Apple is just playing. Were apple to open its doors to third party apps, i might see dropping 1200 dollars on one. but when i can buy 3 crappy dells, trick them out and network them, why would i buy a mac. i'd rather build a DVR, a gaming machine and a business computer all controlled by my Treo or crackberry.

    Apple just desnt have a killer instict.
    • muikano, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2dude, sure, buy 3 dells, trick it out. You can also write your own Itunes program, create your own mp3 player, write your own netcode...

      Usability, and ease. Usability and ease. Apple under Jobs has never abused their monopoly. Microsoft THRIVES on the abuse of theirs. Look at the mp3 player dominance Apple has. Have they stopped improving their player? Itunes gets continually worked on.

      Now look at Windows XP. Our computers are working with 5 year old technology. The SP3 pack is a joke. Tell me, what did SP3 include that you couldn't live without.
      They won the browser wars and then left Internet Explorer alone for years.

      Sony has the largest game console userbase. 500$ and 600$ system with a controller that doesnt even have rumble.
    • tackle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2[Quote]Apple under Jobs has never abused their monopoly[/Quote]

      I'm sorry, what?
    • PathDaemon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Were apple to open its doors to third party apps, i might see dropping 1200 dollars on one."
      What? There are TONS of third party apps for Macs.

      "but when i can buy 3 crappy dells, trick them out and network them, why would i buy a mac. i'd rather build a DVR, a gaming machine and a business computer all controlled by my Treo or crackberry."
      You could buy one Mac and use it as a DVR, gaming machine, and business computer. The same goes for Dells. And Salling Clicker (a third party app, if you weren't sure) will let your Bluetooth devices (like Treo), not sure 'bout blackbery, control a Mac.
  • tharealmegaman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5So an accurate article gets posted yesterday about how Linux performs better than OSX and gets buried while a sensationally titled article like this gets this many diggs? Does anyone else need further proof of the power that Apple fanboys hold on digg?
  • bitcloud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Reads like marketing propaganda.

    Anything that computes is a computer. The only difference between appliances that companies like apple make, and appliances that are "clinging to the PC model even for the living room" are that the former are closed computers and the latter are open systems. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

    It *is* possible to make closed systems that can be opened. (think beginner, advanced, expert).
    Thats the model to use.
    • PathDaemon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Actually, that's how Macs work. Beginners use iLife and the other basic parts of the Mac OS, advanced users crack open the UNIX core and do whatever they want.
  • richardiscool, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4We are at war with Oceania, and Apple has the largest market share.
  • cliffzdude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If Apple can gain 10% to 15% hardware market penetration by 2010 it will be by starting to produce boxes that compete with Dell on Dell's terms.
    i.e., Fully loaded boxes with monitor and the kitchen sink for under $500, delivered to your door, with a free printer to boot...

    I know we computer geeks are completely convinced that a low end PC just can NOT suffice for our friends and neighbors, say nothing for the corporate world. Everybody needs a dual core proc, with 4GB of ram, and dual video cards with a 42" plasma display. But the reality is they don't.

    Apple will have to start to troll in the lower end of the computer market if they want to play with the big box people. I'd love to see it happen, hell, more competition is always good for the consumer. Be it a Apple consumer or a WinTel consumer...
  • brownboi43, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2How many times have people said, "Microsoft is about to be dethroned"? It's been said for years.

    But look who's still on top. I'm putting my money on Microsoft.
  • xnet, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2i'd like a mac or an ipod.... but its just too costly.
    • tackle, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1[Quote]i'd like a mac or an ipod.... but its just too costly. [/Quote]

      No, you just think that you do.
    • vinny, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Really? How much do you have to spend? I bet you can find an Apple system that meets your needs at that price.
  • FireStrife, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What was mostly said is true. The world is run mostly on Microsoft OS, and the fact that WinXP gains its support from many companies and does have a lead in the market for its versatility to be used with many different types of hardware make it fairly popular. Macs I will say are nice and sometimes more stable than that of Windows however he who wins the market has to win the favor of other companies who will provide for. Windows being able to run on many hardware configurations and brands has been the winner with this strategy. The way mac works however it would need to be allowed to function under more than just its own brand.
    If Apple really wants to beat MS it would have to do it with WinXP functionabilty and diversity not under high priced self hardware.
  • denisflorent, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3No, seriously, 22 years after... some people are still writing pseudo-articles just to say "Apple is better than Microsoft" ? Oh my God !!! Don't they have anything better to do in life ? 30 minutes wasted to write that pseudo-article !
  • denisflorent, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@ rubeus
    You wrote "I think you would do good to remember that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is necessarily the best choice/quality."

    Well... do you realise how anti-democratic this sentence is ?
    • hardran3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Do you realize democracy has nothing to do with this ?

      If Popular = Best, Then reality TV is the best TV ever, Ashlee Simpson is the best singer, and windows is the best OS. Popular != Best. Popular means it appeals to the lowest common denominator. I use a Mac at Home and a mix of XP/2000 at work. I use windows when I have to, but prefer OS X for personal computing.

      I think the funniest thing about these flame wars is that with 2% market share, most of the Windows Fans have never even been in the same room as a Mac, let alone used one.
  • rebrad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Apple has become the iPod company. iPod is their money maker and their computers and OS now a distant third to iTunes.

    The reason Apple abandon their old proprietary architecture to a industry standard is that the stockholders got tired of throwing good money after bad. Now Apple only controls their hardware to the extent that they can pick and choose what options Intel offers them and Intel doesn't give you any options that they don't offer others.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Apple abandons OSX in a couple years when there is no money in supporting the antiquated PowerPC architecture. After all, why continue to throw money at an OS when the return on an OS can't compete with Apple's primary business, the iPod and iTunes.

    It also wouldn't surprise me if Apple sold the brand name, Mac to the Chinese, Indians or whomever pays the highest price. It worked for IBM and it would work for Apple. IBM was then free to pursue their core business and in Apples case they could pursue the path they have chosen as an entertainment industry.
    • bb4u, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I don't think the iPod/iTunes is as easily defended as the Macs so it would be a mistake for Apple to sell off the Mac brand or stop developing OS X. Mac users have stuck with Apple before the iPod came out and have helped keep the company afloat. Who knows how long Apple will continue to dominate with iPod/iTunes?
    • rebrad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1On digg I've seen more defenders of iPod and iTunes than I have for the Mac. While Mac users have been faithful to Apple, I see little proof that Apple has been faithful to the Mac user. Apple did not warn Mac users in the past when they changed hardware platforms that would render the premium priced Mac they just bought with a shorter support lifespan then they thought they were buying. OSX has been around for how long and try to get support for OS9. Whereas, iPods are only expected to have a lifespan of one year Apple doesn't have to worry about any long term commitment to a piece of hardware. In reality the more hardware changes to the iPod the more iPods Apple sells because many don't want to be seen with yesterday fashion. Apple has loyalty true, but their loyalty are to the customers that will keep giving them money and it's much easier to make money off the iPod than to and relatively expensive computer that support cost drain profits for years.
  • bb4u, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The article mentions Apple dropping old technologies including Firewire. Huh? There is still a Firewire port on the new Intel based Macs. It doesn't seem like they are dropping it in the near future. I believe that other vendors besides Apples have been hesitant to use it because it involves a license fee to Apple which makes it costlier than USB 2.0.
  • denisflorent, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@muikano
    Very funny !
    You write : "Have they stopped improving their player? Itunes gets continually worked on."
    and further :"The SP3 pack is a joke. Tell me, what did SP3 include that you couldn't live without."

    AH AH AH !
    Tell me what the "constant improvements" of iTunes have brought that you couldn't live without, seriously ?
    You people are so BLINDED by that cult-guru Steve, that you don't even see the gross things you write.
    Seriously, I have and use iTunes, and YES it bugs me with updates very often, and YES these updates concerns mostly the "improvement" of the integration of the STORE.

    WAKE UP PEOPLE!
    Microsoft AND Apple just want ONE THING : YOUR MONEY.
  • mfearby, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@vinny: I build my own systems, but if I were to buy, say, a new Dell or a new Mac, and comparing the price between the two, I could buy two Dells for the price of one Mac, or one kick-ass Dell way more powerful than a similarly-priced Mac. Go figure.
    • vinny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1No you can't. This argument has been stated over and over again, but anytime someone actually compares an Apple system with a comparable PC, the Apple system is close too or better in price. Can you give a specific example to support your statement?
  • JohnnySoftware, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Is this page from some alternate dimension???

    "Because Apple controls hardware and software, there is nothing forcing them to support or keep supporting something."

    Apple goes out of its way to support as much 3rd party hardware as possible. They support a ton of printers because they are using the gimp-print software (gimp-print.sourceforge.net) and CUPS - not to mention the ones they or hardware makers have written.

    I have the Mac software developer kit and it comes with all the tools, documentation, and libraries/headers I need to write device drivers for my own devices, if I had any and I felt like it.

    Apple does not get in the way of software developers.

    For instance, Apple does not rigidly "control hardware and software". Apple controls "_system_ hardware and _part_ of the operating system" - that would be a somewhat true statement.

    There are too many apps for the Mac to count that come from third parties. You can easily count the apps that are on sale from Apple.

    Apple does not tightly control the operating system at all. The Darwin layer of Mac OS X is FreeBSD from BSD (obviously), which Apple does not own. The kernel of the Mac OS X is MACH 3.0 from CMU.

    Once the computer is turned on and the first user is registered, the user controls the software more than Apple controls the software.

    Apple has a public website you can sign a SCSL and download Darwin from, then compile it on your Mac or Intel PC. And you can actually run it. It is an OS, it runs commands. It is like Linux, sort of - that is pretty open. You can read the source code for Darwin - or FreeBSD - all you want. I own two textbooks on FreeBSD myself. They are not by Apple.

    Apple thoroughly documents their operating system, uses open sources tools for compiling things (GCC 4 compiles C, C , Objective-C, etc.), shells, scripting (Python, Perl, PHP, Ruby, etc.), and they give away a free install disc with newest version of their COMPLETE development tools including fancy Xcode IDE free with each Mac sold, even the little $599 one!

    They also include Java on the Mac, which they have been doing since Mac OS X came out. They take pains to adapt each version to the Mac, and in fact most of the changes between Sun's JDK 1.4.1 and 1.4.2 came from fixes Apple's engineers made AND CONTRIBUTED BACK to Sun to put in the mainstream builds. Those fixes were then in JREs run by users/develope on not just the Mac but the Windows, Linux, and Unix platforms as well.

    Apple knows how to share and play fair.

    The only proprietary language that they wrote for the Mac that I can think of is AppleScript. You by no means have to use it. Even their scripting infrastructure is Open (that's what OSA stands for) so you can write your own scripting language, and snap it in and use it. For a while, Dave Winer, the guy who seems to be the inventor of RSS did exactly that. Why do you think his website is called Scripting.com? (his language was called Frontier and it was a Mac scripting language that worked with OSA)

    Anyone seen the new graphics animations that are appearing on web pages, that run really fast and don't slow down the whole computer like some plugins do? Well, that is done with a neat element the WHAT team invented, and Apple implemented on Safari 2 and shared with Mozilla which included it in Firefox 1.5. It is called the Canvas element. Know where else you have seen it? Dashboard. All the graphics done in Dashboard applications are done using that Canvas element. That's what they gave to the web community; that is the kind of power they share with developers.

    If you BELIEVE what you SAID and that Apple is interfering with developers in any way, I suggest you get your browser over to this page and take a look around:

    http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/

    This is just a tiny sampling of the software available on the Mac which third party developers sell outright, sell as shareware, or give away as freeware and/or open source.


    As for hardware, Apple defines, makes, and sells the system hardware. You can buy practically any USB mouse, USB keyboard, etc. That is why they adopted USB and dropped their old proprietary ADB (which arguably is what "inspired" USB given their similarities). Apple has worked with 3rd party hard drives, first SCSCI and now USB and IEEE.1394/Firewire, for two decades. Again, Apple is open.
    "Sony does the same thing apple does (keeping their system closed, including making their own accessories for their own devices) ..."

    Sony invented Memory Stick(tm) for Sony devices. Apple does not make any proprietary storage devices that are not interoperable with other devices. Instead, they plug gin in through standard interfaces.

    Name one proprietary port on a Mac. IEEE.1394/Firewire? USB? MODEM? Bluetooth? 802.11g? No way, they are all wide open official de jure industry standards.

    "It's a good thing for Microsoft to allow 3rd parties to develop software."

    Well, last time I checked, they charged a heck of a lot of money to "allow" commercial software developers to buy their IDE (Visual Studio) whereas Apple gives away theirs, Xcode for free. Apple's free tool includes automatic class diagram generating, editing the business object schema using diagrams as well, and graphically selecting the searching/filtering criteria for object searches. And then you can interpose that stuff directly between the application object model - and the GUI. It is called CoreData and it virtually eliminates a lot of the drudgery of application programming developers have to go through on other platforms.

    Hello? What computer do you think the first web browser for HTML (the main document type of The Web) was written/run on? It was a NeXT system - and the Cocoa Framework of Mac OS X *is* the NeXT Step framework. It's the application programming framework The Web was invented on. The programmer who did that work, over at CERN, is now a Knight of the British Empire.

    Microsoft charges quite a lot of money for its development tools. They lashed out at open source tools that are staples in the open source community to Congress. They have called the software two or three generations of programmers have labored on both "cancer" and "communism". Meanwhile, those tools - are curing cancer, monitoring world economies, managing finance, displaying HTML web pages, and recording your TV programs on your TiVo for you.

    1. The core of Apple's operating system (the Unix layer and the Kernel layer) were written by teams of Computer Scientists working at two of the United States leading universities for Computer Science.
    2. Apple gives their development tools away and has been doing so since Mac OS X 10.0 was originally released in 2001.
    3. Apple gives their development documentation away, just like their programming tools.

    Mac developers not only are "allowed" to program, they are given for free everything they need to write:

    1. device drivers
    2. Cocoa or Carbon applications (Aqua GUI) - in C/C or Objective-C
    3. command line (shell) commands (no GUI, text UI or no UI)
    4. X Windows applications
    5. kernel extensions
    6. Dashboard widgets
    7. Applescripts
    8. scripts in any standard/open-source shell language or scripting language
    9. Java applications

    http://developer.apple.com/

    Apple's OS, down at the Darwin layer, uses the same commands and the same APIs that Linux and Unix use. They have the same sorts of data structures, the same calls, the same stuff.

    Windows, by contrast, is a very very different bird than Linux, Unix, or Mac OS X. It is not just its own animal, it is its own species. It has been around a lot shorter time than Unix/Linux/OSX, which traces its roots back to the 1970s.

    Seriously, the history of personal computers is really well known and publicly documented. Some of these statements posted here are so off base, I would be more than a little embarrassed if I had made them.

    Personally I have used both Mac OS X and MS-Windows since about a year of when they both came out, and I have been programming both off and on from the late 1980s or early 1990s. I have bought countless tools from Microsoft and Apple, and got the free ones that Apple gives away now. I just do not know where people get these statements about how each company treats its developers.

    Apple cuts developers way more breaks than Microsoft.

    Has anyone complaining about the Mac ever written one Mac OS X program in their life?
    • jholdaway, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Wow, quite informative. However I think that microsoft also tries to give support for its OS as well. It is in the interest of both companies to have everything work with their OS. What I like about apple (and microsoft is following suit) is even if a device (i.e. camera or phone) is not one with mac (or windows) drivers the OS is begining to connect and work with the device nonetheless.

      My MacOS X.4.6 does this a bit better than my WindowsXP Pro, but Apple did start it a little ahead of Microsoft.
    • mfearby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1My god. Could you give us a one-paragraph summary of that? The thought of reading your comment is too daunting...
  • bradmoreland, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0http://typicalmacintoshuser.com/
  • startrek, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0IDIOTS!! Microsoft didn't rip off Apple's GUI. Let me give you a history lesson:

    There's this company, It's called Xerox, you propably know it as a copier company. Back when computers were new, Xerox had a branch called PARC, these people designed the first OS with a GUI. Then the folks at Microsoft and Apple got their hands on it because Xerox didn't get a patent. Apple then put its new GUI into play before Microsoft.

    Another point:
    William Gates (you probably know him as Bill Gates) dropped out of Harvard (yes the law school) with his buddy Steve Jobs. Bill then started his own company called Microsoft. After a while Steve Jobs quit and started his own business called Apple Computer. So Apple is ripping everything off of Microsoft because Billy made it useful after Xerox made it. You all are pointing the finger at the wrong company!
    • jholdaway, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@startrek "IDIOTS!! Microsoft didn't rip off Apple's GUI. Let me give you a history lesson: "

      The idea of a GUI is neither Microsofts or Apples. And no-one (sane) is claiming that. I believe if you looking at the posts they speak of Windows vs. MacOS and Vista vs. MacOS X. Also I believe everyone knows Bill is short for William (you may remember we had a Bill/William president for a few years).

      Thank you for you enthusiasm, but as a fellow Windows Fanboy. Please try to come up with specific and valid arguments when posting.
    • startrek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Sorry, I think I put the post in the wrong spot. Sorry for the confusion. But all my points are valid, for where I meant to put it.
    • JuliusErving, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"William Gates (you probably know him as Bill Gates) dropped out of Harvard (yes the law school) with his buddy Steve Jobs."

      I'm pretty confused by that statement. Are you saying Steve Jobs went to Harvard law, because he didn't. Or did you mean steve ballmer? Curious.
  • jholdaway, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It will be hard for the shareholders to approve a switch to a software based business, Hardware sales are a much higher profit margin, Apple would have to sale as much as a thousand times more units to turn the same profit.

    So the risk of loosing everything is a difficult risk to take when profits are soaring and brand visability is high. (Even if the posible reward is all the treasures of the Windows empire.)
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